www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Vatican Says Jews' Wait for Messiah is Validated by O.T.

Robert,

We as Catholic Christians also believe the Church is the New Israel. Yet the Catholic Church also teaches:

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus (CCC 242).

Your comments regarding the remnant of Israel are obtuse. To whom do you think St. Paul is refering when he says:

I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-36)

You state:
"By the time of the Second Coming its to late for anyone to reclaim their places. The Jews who reject and deny Christ and His role in salvation are left at the mercy of God. Conjectures at the disbelief of our Savior does not entitle anyone a reservation in the heavenly Mansions. There is no purgatory or a second chance in the grave for repentance."

How do you know when it is too late? I would agree there is no chance for repentance in the grave. Yet the Second Coming is not instant death. It is my hope and that of many Christians that at the Second Coming the Jewish people will recognize Christ as their Messiah and be saved.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Nicky's Baba,

Although the language is odd, I think the reference is that Christ will come again not as a babe in a manger or a humble carpenter but as the King of Glory. So just as after the Resurrection he was not immediately recognizable to even his disciples, at the Second Coming, Christ will more resemble what the Jewish people have beeen expecting all along than what we are use to in our representations of Him.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Dear Agape and Lance,

I agree!

Steve
JOY!

Kurt,

Your language is divine! ROTFL!

Steve
JOY

Lance,
The Jews are aware of the Gospel. They do not live in a bubble. Go to the Talmud and see what it says. If you continue to quote Romans we read:
"11:28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 11:30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may22 receive mercy. 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience so that he may show mercy to all."

Roman 11:26 passage "all Israel will be saved" is the true Israel, those who truly believe, not all physical descendants of Jacob.

My friend, the Second Coming is Judgement Day. I certainly do not know when it will come. What the Church teaches is to be prepared and ready. I am not going to judge the salvation of non-Christians or any Christian on that particular Day. Christ is the Judge. We may be called upon as witnesses. I do not know. By this point it may be too late for repentance. We have had enough time to repent. It is for this very reason that we are to be prepared here and now. That means receiving Holy Confession & Communion. I'll end with Matthew 7:

7:21 �Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,�23 will enter into the kingdom of heaven, only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 7:22 On that day, many will say to me, �Lord, Lord, didn�t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do24 many powerful deeds?� 7:23 Then I will declare to them, �I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!�

Robert,

I believe you misread the passage. Clearly not every single descendant is meant. Yet the passage clearly does not refer to the New Israel, the Church. How can Israel, said to be hardened in part, refer to the Church? This passage refers to both the Jews of Jesus' day and those continuing to the present. And yes the Jewish people do live in a bubble of sorts because the Lord himself has deafened their ears to the Gospel. Why, I do not presume to guess. The Lord is mystery and His designs beyond our grasp.

"What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day." (Romans 11:7-8 NAB)

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Lance
You are correct HE will come again in glory just as the Creed states not traces, but it will be the whole Jesus . Babe/carpenter/crucified/risen
/glorified. You say "I think the reference is". Someone else can say the same thing ,then here we go.When I read it suggests a separation in Jesus. Thats why the word "traces" is not a good word to use.


Nicky's Baba

It is not the Old Testament which is necessary to understand the New Testament, it is the New Testament which is necessary to understand the Old. Just because one understands the alphabet doesn't make him a linguist and likewise, the OT is a preparation for the full message of salvation. Why else did Jesus descend into Hades?

Anyone who wishes to learn about Christianity should always be encouraged to read the NT first, several times, then the OT.

The language of Syncretism is destined to converge all religions including Judaism and this is another example.

This latest message from the Vatican is not a confession of faith, it is another superficial ethical message of "peace and unity". The Jews' DO NOT Wait for Messiah and it is NOT Validated by the O.T. any longer, because the OT prophecies were fulfilled. These people are trying to sell us an inner-conscience which says Christ came to teach us how to all get along and that therefore it is acceptable to reduce the Messiah to the "still awaited Messiah". And for this reason it is apparent their expectations are much like the Jews, who wanted the Messiah to be an earthly King.

They do not want Christ as He is, who taught to stand for the life in truth above all, which is why they also don't want the Church the way it is; They want a Christ Who will submit to them, they want a Church Who will not be opposed to any of the syncretistic motives they put forward.

The Jews awaited the Messiah for centuries, and when He came they did not accept Him; instead, they hung Him on the Cross. And why? Because Christ was not what they were waiting for. And that is why they were not able to recognize the Messiah. They were waiting for an earthly king, a world conqueror. They awaited someone who would subject all the races of the world at the feet of the nation of Israel, who force the Roman rulers of the world to bow and worship him, who would give power and glory to his followers.

When they saw Him poor and humble, meek and full of peace, one Who offered no earthly goods but spoke of heavenly things, and not only that, but even asked them to deny the earthly and tangible so that liberated they could reach the heavenly and intangible, they realized that He was not for them. He was not the Messiah they awaited, but exactly the opposite. He Who refused to turn the stones into bread for all to be filled, Who refused to overwhelm the mobs with His power and did not agree to subjugate the kingdoms of the earth, was not the appropriate leader for them. That is why they crucified Him and began awaiting another. And they still await him. And along with the Jews are millions of people awaiting the Messiah of the Jews, and many of them are called "Christians". And they have no idea that they await the same Messiah as the Jews.

And the great tragedy and hoax is that the Messiah whom the Jews await will come. It was said by the mouth of Christ and by the mouth of the Apostles; it is written in the books of the New Testament. The Messiah of the Jews shall come. He will give the bread which Christ refused to give, and along with that, all the material things which He refused to give. He will overwhelm them with signs and wonders which people unto the ends of the earth will fear and be amazed at, and they will come groveling to fall at his feet. He will unite all the nations and races and kingdoms of the world into one state. He will fill the hearts of the Scribes of the law and the Pharisees with joy - the hearts of every race of "Jews". Yes, the Messiah of the Jews shall come. He will be what Christ is not, and he will not be what Christ is. He will be the Antichrist.

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Lance,
"All Israel will be saved" does not refer to soley the Jews, and not all Jews or non-Jew will be saved. After this it's none of my business but God's alone. The passage that St. Paul refers to was intended for the Jews who hardened their hearts. I don't believe that the Lord deafened their ears since we the Church believe in free will. They chose to be deaf as they are now. They choose not to accept the Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Christ came to save them from their deceit. Did He not say "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel(Mat 15:24)?"
At any rate, St. Paul left the Jews with no excuses for rejecting and denying the Gospel. God gave the Jews a sign and the Gentiles ran with it. They had extraordinary opportunities to come to Faith. Believe me and you they did hear and did not believe as they do now. There are no exceptions for them or any other avenue to salvation but through Christ Jesus. God help them. Many of us are aware of Jews accepting Christ be they in the Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant Churches. They have an opportunity like the rest of us to search & find the truth within them in Jesus' name.

Robert,

I agree the individual Jew has freewill and the opportunity to accept Christ. Yet Scripture and the teaching of my Church lead me to believe that as a people the Lord has a plan for the Jews and for some reason he has preserved them to this day. For if any group or religion should have faded from the earth surely it was the Jewish faith. I am not saying they have an alternative way of Salvation. All are saved by Christ alone. Yet can we not(should we not) hope that they can be saved at the Second Coming?

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Lance,
God has a plan for everyone. If you want to call it custom-tailored plan, be my guest. I do not think favoritism exists in our theology. We can also speculate about every sect and religion that God has a plan for whether they follow and do not follow Him. These are good-for-nothing conjectures.
The Jews are mere human beings like you and me and do not need to be given differential treatment as you have insinuated.
Yes, we can pray for the salvation of all as our Divine Liturgies demand. This is what separates us from everyone else that does not accept Christ and denies the Gospel.


Matthew 7:
"7:13 �Enter through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the way is spacious that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 7:14 But the gate is narrow and the way is difficult that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Robert,

I think we wil have to agree to disagree here. My main point in this thread was to point out that the Catholic Church teaches that the Jewish people have a special place. To read into this that the Church is saying the Jews are saved apart from Christ or that we need not try to evangelize them is wrong. Those who want to use it as fodder for the "Catholic Church falls deeper into heresy" fire are not looking at the totality of the Church's teaching. But they will do as they may, and I pay them little heed. In any matter it appears we have reached an impass and further discussion will probably not bear any fruit as we are both set in our views. I have said all I have to say on the issue. Thank you for your polite discourse.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

I usually find any, so called quote, of the Vatican by any newspaper - disturbing. It is their job to be disturbing and sensational. If there are no current crisis to write about - they will take elements of truth, write in such a way as to mislead you - and create one.

If peace, honesty and goodness flooded the world - newspapers would have nothing to write about.

Have you read the original document yourself?

Very well put Kurt.

The first testament covenant is still effective, Christ fullfilled its revelation and then extended it to the gentiles (and of course it had nothing to do with killing sheep in a temple).

Jesus, in his resurrected body is still King of the Jews - we gentiles were adopted.

As far as his resurrected human nature - when we meet him - he will be a Hebrew. I expect a robe and not a suit and tie.

I did not read it that way.