www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches

Dear Friends,

I was involved with the Catholic Charistmatic movement to do a sociology of religion paper.

The experience was very moving and helped me embrace Eastern Christianity in the fullest possible measure.

The emphasis on the Holy Spirit is what connected me to Byzantine Christianity sans Latinizations.

For me, the charismatic movement is part and parcel of the Eastern Orthodox-Catholic Christian experience, and without some of what I saw were the more negative issues of the charismatic prayer experience - lack of outward composure and respect via "praise the Lord" etc., the danger of "inner light piety," mediumistic-like experiences with respect to "speaking in tongues" and being, in some groups, compelled to do so as a condition for acceptance and the like.

Reading Motovilov's conversation with St Seraphim of Sarov showed me the power of the Spirit in the most authentic and traditional way possible.

Alex

St. Paul and I would disagree with you on much of this.

1. Every baptized and chrismated Christian is regarded as a "saint".

2. According to St. Paul's epistles, the gifts are alive and well and are meant to be used for the building up of the ecclesia.

3. The charisms, as I said, are not signs of personal holiness, but are rather are signs of God's grace - even at times an extraordinary grace that can come to any of the "saints". One of the ways in which the movement struggled early on is in forgetting that the charisms were extraordinary gifts...some even believing that every one could be utilized "on demand". this was not always the case, but it did occur. A more mature posture is for individuals to discern how the "Spirit is moving" and let the charsims/graces/energies be poured forth at God's will. With that said, the charisms intrinsic to the orders of apostolic ministry are of a different nature altogether.

Gordo

XB!

Does no one else here consider the movement to be demon-inspired, and nothing more than prelest?

ummm...I'd be careful about throwing out that label of "demon inspired" to a recognized ecclesial movement. You only demonstrate your complete ignorance in this matter.

And I say this an "ex" member (as far as that is possible) of the "movement".

I think the movement and its membership are certainly open to criticism from within and without. So if you have a criticism to offer, by all means. But labelling the movement as completely subject to the powers of Satan I think calls into question your own discernment.

Gordo

See, what Dr. Alex talks about with the experiences with St. Seraphim of Sarov, my examples of Sts. Pio of Pietrelcina and Vincent Ferrer and even the Holy Fools are true examples of the Charisms of the Holy Ghost. Pentecostals drinking strychnine and dancing with snakes (I'm not painting with a broad brush, only giving examples of what I've seen) and people rolling around on the ground blithering away do not strike me as people who have been given a Gift by the Holy Ghost.

ummm...Pentecostals are not synonymous with Catholic Charismatics. Two different movements altogether.

And in my family background on my mother's Carolina side, we had a snake handling Pentecostal. Pentecostal theology and practice could not be further removed from Catholic charismatic theology and practice.

Like all movements in the church it needs to be managed. Where it has not been managed it has gone all over the place, as other organisations have found. The example I posted of what happened here in Western Australia was an example of no management and the failure to see the 4 square Gospel influence coming in. Unfortunatley a few Catholics I have known have migrated into the Penticostal Churches via the Charismatic movement. Management here came in after the great migration to Queensland but too late.

ICXC
NIKA

Excuse me? I have no problems dealing with real people. If I did I would not be in formation with the Carmelites.

I stated that they tend to form cliques and that is not to my likeing. It was that that chased me away. That and the over emphasis on emotional out bursts.

Approved? But so has the Neocatechumenate.

It being approved does not really matter as it has nothing to do with the Deposit of Faith so no one is bound to believe in it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
[QB]Excuse me? I have no problems dealing with real people. If I did I would not be in formation with the Carmelites.[QUOTE][qb]

David,

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I did not mean that you had problems dealing with real people. I'm sure that you are a very personable fellow and have all sorts of friends.

I meant that you are painting a cartoonish picture of people in the charismatic renewal, rather than talking about real people...or at least that is what it sounded like to me.

Gordo

Pace, Gordo, I was only stating my opinion, which happens to coincide with that of Blessed Seraphim of Platina - that the Charismatic phenomena associated with the movement is naught more than a shamanic trance.

Nowhere did I say the movement was 'completely subject to the powers of Satan' - God can well bring something good out of a demonic movement. No movement of any sort can be 'completely subject to the powers of Satan', not even Mahometanism and pagan religions.

As I recall, ecclesial blessing and approval is not covered by infallibility.

For what it's worth, I speak not as a complete stranger to the movement. I was a member of such an organisation for a reasonable amount of time (if any time there may be called reasonable at all), and not a day has gone by when I do not thank God for having led me out of it. It is not wise to automatically assume that any who disagrees with one's ideas and opinions is necessarily ignorant or undiscerming.

No, you chose to make that judgement.

I am speaking of my experiences. You can devalue them all you wish but that does not change the fact that they are my experiences.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice.

Maybe this link will bring some understanding to this discussion

http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/

Let's be clear, David. I'm not the one handing down judgements against a whole movement by loosely tossing out a myriad of scriptural condemnations and saying - "that's many of them"! At that point you are not talking about experiences, you are talking about judgement of people...REAL people. I said you were thinking of these people as caricatures, and having lived with them, I stand by by assessment. I don't devalue your experience, but I question your judgement and misapplication of Sacred Scripture to a movement the Church has blessed. If you have issues or challenges doctrinally with the charismatic gifts, their authenticity and how they are manifested in the movement, that's fine. I said that the movement and the people are not above criticism.

Since you are in preparation for ministry in the Carmelite Order, my recommendation to you is that you take the time to read some positive theological assessments of the movement by reputable scholars and hierarchs, like Archbishop Cordes' and Montague and MacDonnell's books that I mentioned above. (You and Dr. Eric will appreciate, as did I, Archbishop Paul Cordes' assessment of the phenomenon known as "being slain in the Spirit". He sees it as very problematic, saying it is purely a psychological phenomenon that can create spiritual damage. He quotes the great Doctor of the spiritual life, St. Theresa of Avila - quite often, BTW - about resisting techniques to bring about spiritual ecstasy.)

If all you do is make your "experience" with the charismatics your measure for the movement, are you not doing the same thing you disdain among its members?

God bless,

Gordo

Edward,

Pace, as well. If you have some texts to that effect, I'd be very interested in reading them.

Well then, I'll have to keep that in mind the next time you call a movement "demon inspired".

I never said it was. In fact, the movement known as the Humiliati [newadvent.org] was approved and its male branch was later surpressed. I believe I also said that ecclesiatical establishment is not the same as blanket approval, as we have seen with the Neocatechumenate recently. The movement has come a long way, though, from where it was in the 1970's and 80's, largely due to the initiative of the hierarchy, most especially Cardinal Suenens. Pope Paul VI's commission to Cardinal Suenens, as its first Episcopal Adviser, was to bring the Charismatic Renewal "into the heart of the Church". One could perhaps discern a double meaning in that - ensure that the movement stays close to the Church and her teachings, as well as bring aspects of an authetic renewal of the charisms of the laity to the heart of the whole Church. Archbishop Paul Cordes was Suenen's successor in that role for ten years.

Thanks for that advice. It is also wise not to project one's experience onto a whole movement ("demon inspired" and "full of prelest"?). As I said, I am "out of the movement" myself and fully participate in the Byzantine tradition. I see within Eastern Christianity, as Alex alluded to, a fulfillment of many of the fundamental aspirations of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. (That may be one of the reasons why an Orthodox church was formed within the covenant community I grew up in.) It's emphasis on conversion (aka "Baptism or Outpouring of the Holy Spirit"), praise, Sacred Scripture, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the pneumatalogical dimension of the spiritual life represent the lifeblood - or "sap" of the living structure of the "tree" of the Church. One does not need to be part of the "movement" to be "charismatic". Nor does one need to experience the "gift of tongues" or even a special "outpouring". Nor does one need (thankfully) a casio keyboard.

I found most of the people within the movement to be of good will, with a sincere love for Jesus Christ. Your equating their experience as "naught more than a shamanic trance" a "demonic movement" and "full of prelest" still leads me to question your discernment in this regard.

Gordo

Thanks, Pani Rose. What a tremendous resource! And how many groups actually read and care about the magisterial documents of the Church?

I would also point out that a number of wonderful manifestations of modern Catholic ecclesial life sprang from the heart of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement:

- EWTN
- Miles Jesu
- Franciscan University of Steubenville (post-Father Michael Scanlan's arrival in '74) and its MYRIAD of apostolates and religious orders that were started by its student body
- Franciscan Friars of the Renewal
- Emmanuel Community (France)

"Demon inspired" indeed. Did not Jesus say 'A kingdom divided against itself will not stand." when others accused Him of using demonic powers to cast out demons?

Gordo