www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches

It's pretty pathetic when you start quoting yourself.

Admin, Can you remove this post and my last (repeat) one above? I'm not sure how that happened!

Thanks!

Gordo

Dear Edward,

Actually, Blessed Seraphim of Platina considered all Catholics to be totally bereft of grace, including (and especially!) Eastern Catholics.

In dealing with Roman Catholics who didn't see things the way Orthodoxy did, Blessed Seraphim chalked it up to "lack of grace through separation from the Church."

That's hardly an authority to quote on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

As Catholics, we're already off his radar screen . . .

Alex

Dear Gordo,

There is the case of the Greek Orthodox parish associated with LOGOS publications that was initially very much against the Charismatic movement . . . until their priest began speaking in tongues himself . . .

I think Pavel is right to say that the Charismatic/Neo-Pentecostal movement has not been well-managed in the Catholic Church.

When one speaks with Catholic Charismatics, one often finds that they blurr the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism re: the "assurance of salvation" and the like.

And there always were some Catholic Pentecostals, as they sometimes call themselves, who joined the Pentecostal churches.

But how many of those who "speak in tongues" among them truly are doing so? Or prophesying in the Spirit? Can we honestly compare what goes in those meetings with what occurred during the Apostolic age?

Yes, the Spirit can overshadow and bless us with His Gifts.

But it is HIS call to do so, not ours - and Charismatics often act as if they "have the Spirit" simply by praying for Him to come into their lives.

The great ascetics have shown that spiritual life is an arduous struggle. Without that struggle and without the Cross, there can be no spiritual life.

Alex

AMEN to all of it! I heartily agree.

Gordo

PS: Thanks for the story about LOGOS. I had not heard that...

Krisdos haryeav i merelots!

The book to read on this subject is 'Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future' by Blessed Seraphim (Rose) of Platina. The relevant chapters are available online at this site. [fatheralexander.org]

Just like Protestantism.

Ah yes. This same Cardinal Suenens, the arch-liberal, who pioneered the practice of Communion in the Hand, in open defiance of Rome, and then dared Rome to do anything about it. The same Cardinal Suenens who often celebrated Mass in coat and tie. How charming.

You're doing it again. First I was showing my 'complete ignorance', now when I mention my own experience, I'm projecting. Caricaturing the positions of one's opponents in debate and making ad hominem attacks and assumptions - is not only bad debating, it's uncharitable and rude.

While we're on the topic of 'projecting', the next time you feel like attributing an opinion such as 'labelling the movement as completely subject to the powers of Satan' or anything similar to someone who hasn't said anything of the sort, I suggest emotional baggage is best kept to oneself.

No one is questioning their sincerity and goodwill. Good intentions, while paving the road to Hell, have nothing to do with it. I'm sure the Ra�lians are generally also of good will and sincere, but that doesn't change the fact that they are in serious error and have had their spiritual eyes blinded by demons.

Question it all you like. I've had the benefit of having investigated similar phenomena in pagan religions - which are frequently visible in Singapore, in Taoism and Hinduism among others. The shamanistic trances that mediums in these religions undergo, and the process by which the mediums enter those trances and have their spirits take possession of their bodies, performing wonders and speaking in unknown languages or with impossibly different voices, is frighteningly similar to what goes on in the Charismatic movement.

Blessed Seraphim knew what he was talking about - he had much experience with the occult in North America. It is no wonder then, that converts from Taoism and Hinduism tend to avoid the Charismatic movement - in both Catholic and Protestant Churches. It's far too close to home for comfort.

When I lived in Malawi in Central Africa in the 60s it was the Malawian Clergy who were not so keen on the drums etc in Church while the European clergy and sisters were the ones bringing it in. They just did not do it when the Archbishop was around as he was dead against it. The Archbishop's family had converted from the local pagan religion and he associated the drums with the pagan world.

ICXC
NIKA

XB!

Alex,

Blessed Seraphim was certainly an extremist with regards to the matter of grace amongst Catholics, but he nevertheless makes good points against the Charismatic movement.

I have judged no people. I have said that the charismatic movement is not for me and I will have nothing to do with it.

It seems that you like to judge those of us who do not care for the "movement".

No I do not think so and St Theresa of Avila isn ot talking about the Charismatic movement.

I think it is time to move on to other discussions, seems we have hit a nerve of yours and you will brook no disagreement with your views.

I think you need to understand that others experiences are just as valid as yours.

What you are sharing is news to me as far as celebrating Mass in a coat and tie. As far as communion in the hand, any discussion around that takes us far afield from the original topic. I am not an advocate for the practice, but I do not see that as an indictment against the Cardinal.

Doing what again? You launch a salvo about demons and prelest as an indictment against thousands of people and a movement that has been blessed by the church hierarchy and I'm uncharitable and rude for saying your statements betray your ignorance?

Perhaps you can clarify how demon inspired is any different from being subjected to the powers of Satan. Is either desirable or complimentary?

Instead of playing psychologist, why don't you clarify your extreme statements. Honestly - between you and David. Both of you launch extreme, blanket criticisms of a Christian movement and then when someone calls you on how absurd and extreme your statements are, you attempt to reduce the objection to neuroses. May I point out that I am not the one citing emotional exeriences as part of the rationale for the wholesale rejection of a movement? I suggest you examine your own bags or check them at the door.

Nice. Now the parallel you offer to the Charismatic renewal is the Ra�lians. Thank goodness you didn't say that they were subject to the powers of Satan. I guess THAT would REALLY have been bad!

Are you entirely sure you were part of a Catholic Charismatic Renewal group? No one I know of ever spoke in different voices or fell into deep trances in the twenty years I was exposed to the movement.

Clearly if your comparative analysis detailed above is your rationale for condemning wholesale the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I would argue that your conclusions are baseless. Any hint of similarity (and there is very little) does not equate with sameness.

You seem convinced by "Blessed" Seraphim Rose, your flimsy analysis and personal experience over and against the discernment and guidance of the of the Catholic Church for over 30 years. And for that we are to believe that this movement is demon inspired and the people full of prelest?

Most unimpressive.

I beg to differ, David.

Shall I remind you of what you posted on page two of this thread?

You understate your Scriptural condemnations of "many" in the movement. I realize it is probably uncomfortable to be confronted with the injustice of highly disparaging remarks especially those that involve the mispplication of inspired texts. I suggest you either retract or defend them, since the "many" are composed of real people that I have known and had friendships with for years. I left the movement for my own reasons, and yes some of them are based on fundamental disagreements. But yours and Edwards statements should not be allowed to stand unchallenged.

No - I don't. I am actually quite sympathetic in more ways than you would expect. I make no judgement of your person, only your thoughtless bandying about of Scriptures to condemn something I get the impression you neither fully understand nor intend to understand.

I think you misunderstood my mention (and Cordes' citation) of St. Theresa. She is arguing against the pursuit of ecstatic experiences due to its damage to the spiritual life. I think there is ample reason to quote her, even though she is not directly referring to the charismatic renewal. I think it is of great benefit to the members and leaders of the renewal to read and study her writings, in part because I think that the search for ecstatic experiences can be a real temptation for the members of the movement. It was potentially a point of agreement between us, but for some reason you turned it to a disagreement.

The "nerve" is not with those who have honest theological differences or disagreement with the movement. (Although I am more than willling to challenge some of these assumptions. That is, I assume, the point of forums like this.) It is with those that for some reason are incapable of appreciating the good within something they may take issue with - and then of course condemning the "many" who support it that strikes a nerve with me.

I supose that depends on what you mean by "valid". I do not question that you had a bad experience, or one that certainly not to your liking or taste. To me, the truth of the Church and the Gospel is the measure of "validity", and I believe that the Holy Spirit guides our leadership in the discernment of such matters. (It is not a question of infallibility at this point.) There are certainly reasons to be cautious about aspects of the charismatic movement - just as there are reasons to be cautious about aspects of the Neocatechumenate. As much has been acknowledged by the Church's pastors, including episcopal advisors to the renewal.

God bless,

Gordo

I don't see anything that the Charismatic renewal has to offer the Eastern Catholic Churches.

I am open to discussion on this, but in my experience with the CCR and the ECC, I can hardly see what.

To a large extent, I agree with you - especially in its current form. I do think, however, that we can learn from its emphasis on personal conversion, openness to the charisms of the laity as expressed within our spiritual tradition, commitment to evangelization, enthusiasm for a personal relationship with Christ, etc etc.

If anything, I think the inverse is true - the Byzantine Church can be a help to those in the renewal. As I said before, I believe our worship and theology represent a fulfillment of the authentic aspirations of the renewal movement. Eastern Christian liturgical life and thelogy is an appropriate corrective to some of the excesses that exist from time to time in the renewal.

Gordo

XB

If you don't see his liberalism as an indictment, there really is nothing further to talk about.

This is what you're doing again: assuming anyone who has a differing view is either ignorant or projecting.

What I said was 'demon-inspired', as is any schism or heretical movement. That's quite different from being 'completely subject to the power of Satan', which you attributed to me. To twist a debating opponent's words and make a caricature of his position and attack that, instead of engaging his exact words, is intellectually dishonest, and bad debating tactics, something for which I think an apology should be forthcoming.

One sign of emotional baggage is overreacting to someone's statements and attributing all sorts of assumptions and motives, projections and suchlike , instead of engaging exactly what was said. This is precisely what you have been doing these past two pages.

No mortal is immune to the power of Satan. The charismatic phenomena is nothing more than shamanism, plain and simple.

Ah. Stupid me. I didn't think to ask if the group was CCR. Perhaps even though they met in an RC church, had statues of Our Lady of Fatima and the Sacred Heart, they were actually Protestants in disguise.

Before you pronounce that there is no more than a little hint of similarity, I'd like to know how much experience with pagan mediums you've had. Reading newspaper reports and watching occasional newsclips on CNN don't count.

The analysis is not my own, even if the personal experience is - the analysis is that of the constant Tradition of the Church, both East and West. The phenomena of speaking in unknown tongues disappeared for a reason, and the Charismatic 'gift of tongues' gobbledygook is not the same as that of the New Testament.

Furthermore, the movement was born in Protestantism, and only spread to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches through Catholics and Orthodox receiving this sham 'Baptism in the Spirit' from Protestants, not through the
sacramental channels of grace established by Christ. The Saints of old would have suffered a martyr's death rather than seek a Protestant mock-sacrament as a channel to sanctity. This nonsense only encourages religious indifferentism. My experience has been that the Charismatic movement has been more of a way out of the Catholic Church for Catholics, than a way into the Catholic Church for Protestants.

It must be further noted that Pentecostalism encourages extraordinary phenomena such as "prophesying" and "talking in tongues." Yet the great mystical writer and Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross, warned that souls must flee from seeking any such manifestations. What this great Saint said of private revelations
equally applies to all such phenomena: "Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in extraordinary phenomenon] that I believe it impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the Devil give them.

Also, Msgr. Knox wrote that "to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession." To freely expose oneself to such dangers borders on madness.

One cannot help but wonder if a Catholic or Orthodox, even a priest, walks into such doubtful activities with his eyes wide open, omits to test the spirits, and persists in such heterodox practice, would end up being punished with a spiritual blindness that judges certain evils as good. Whether this is the case with the individual Charismatics, only God knows.

I don't particularly care about whether you're impressed or not. Living in America, it is understandable that you have very little daily contact and experience with the strength and nature of pagan mediumistic phenomena and therefore dismiss it out of hand.

Any comparison between Eastern Christianity and the Charismatic movement is entirely repugnant and does justice to neither.

And lest you accuse me next of a blanket condemnation of the movement and being incapable of appreciating any good in it whatsover, I will hasten to add that whatever genuine spiritual benefits it brings to its practitioners, I concede to be good.

I think when we talk about Catholic Charismatic, we often lump everything together as "pentecostal", catholic things and protestant thing and probably even non-christian thing into one pool.

I agree that not all in this pentecostal pool is catholic, and not all in Catholic Charismatic movement is "true" Catholic Charismatic movement.

But then this is the point, apart from all things good and bad we discussed here, how is the Church (at least Catholic Church) define and see "true" Catholic Charismatic movement? What are the characters, the signs of this movement which are blessed by the Church?

Then, if we meet someone not in line with this true character, how can we guide that person to understand the Catholic Charismatic movement in the way the Church bless?

I see that we are discussing things without even talking what kind of Charismatic Movement is blessed by the Church and lump everything into one and bash them all together, the one blessed by the Church and those that are not even probably close to Catholic Charismatic movement as intended by the Church.