www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches

Alfonsus,

Excellent points all. I would recommend that you take a look at Archbishop Paul Cordes' book. He covers quite well the different charismatic phenomenon, how they are rooted in both Scripture and the teaching of the church, and where there are temptations to go astray or to engage in practices that are psychologically induced.

The chapter titles and subsections of his book may provide some detail that would be helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0814658873/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0519044-6671341#reader-page

Edward,

I hestitate to reply since you seem to be at a fever pitch at this moment. You positions are extreme and outside of the church's discernment of these matters. Doubtless I could provide no proof to the contrary, since you seem convinced by your reading of a questionable Orthodox writer (questionable not only according to many Catholics but also to many Orthodox), your own experience in the CCR which apparently was abysmal and your weak comparisons to other religious groups. Your quote from Knox's text ("Enthusiasm" I suppose?) was probably the most helpful thing you've contributed to this conversation...that and the link to Father Seraphim Rose's work.

Actually I think your arguments in this section bring up some very interesting points for consideration:

In truth I have wondered about many of the things you have mentioned here:

- The propensity of charismatics to leave communion with the Catholic Church. I can point to several examples where this occurred in my own experience. Evidently this has been discussed several times at the international levels of leadership for the CCR with the Church hierarchy. I believe that is one of the reasons why the hierarchy was very keen to embrace and fully Catholicize the movement, which I think - at least based on my experience here in the states - has been pretty successful.

As to the "mock sacrament", I'm not sure how Baptism in the Holy Spirit was treated in Singapore (in Europe it is called "Outpouring of the Holy Spirit", probably to reduce confusion with anything sacramental), but I recall early on that it appeared to me to be something of a "sacrament" or even a "rite of passage" (not that the two are synonymous!). As the renewal has matured here in the states at least, the understanding of this experience has turned more towards "fanning the flame" or the spiritual ember that was given in Baptism and Chrismation. So the connection to the sacraments/mysteries is made when referring to this experience as a deepening of interior conversion.

The connection to Protestantism, which I mentioned earlier, has been a source of great potential for the renewal ecumenically speaking, as well as source of very real problems in every other way...at least early on. I believe that the principal points of reference for those in the early stages of the CCR were Protestant, since very little literature existed from a Catholic perspective (later Patristic connections to some phenomenon were identified). This caused many in the lay leadership of the movement to adopt Protestant models of worship and even a sort of "para-ecclesiology" where the false dichotomy of the "charismatic" and "institutional" Church creates a para-ecclesial reality known as the "Covenant Community". These developed out of a desire to live a common life patterened after Acts 2 (including Acts 2:42) - the experience of the church after Pentecost. In reality, there was much floundering as some attempted to reinvent the ecclesial wheel.

I attribute the cause of this to a number of factors:

1. The inability of Catholic charismatics in large part to interpret their experience according to Catholic theological categories. The large scale effort to do just this began under Suenens and these works are contained in the "Documents of Malines" which detail specific points of direction for the CCR.

2. The challenge of the average pastor (including some bishops) and average parish to understand how to deal with the complexities of a new movement. Again, this has some tie to the first point above. You can imagine the difficulty: A parish priest has a few parishioners coming to him saying that they are experiencing phenomenon from Acts 2 and that this should be the pattern of all Catholic life. Since the movement did not have a figurehead, like say the early Franciscans with St. Francis, it took some time for the leadership and spokepeople for the movement to be identified and developed. How should a pastor respond? Suffice it to say the responses were mixed. Some were very open to the movement, others were not at all, while others were cautious and still pastoral. the reaction of parishes were also mixed, but more often then not charismatics were viewed as wierd and extreme. And, quite honestly, some were. Human nature is what it is. Some people took things too far. The faculties for discernment of "prophetic inclinations" were not that developed so things were said and done that should not have been. At the same time, there were some pretty amazing things happening. Despite its immaturity and the immaturity of its members at times, the movement was full of energy and idealism and people came to a deeper realization of their need for prayer, the study of Sacred Scripture, conversion to Jesus Christ and evangelization. I think this caused some in the community to see themselves as a persecuted minority, and to see unhealthy parallels between those who rejected them with the Pharisees of the Gospels.

3. The desire of members of the movement to live the book of Acts - "holding all things in common" - as much as possible. Problems arose when, according to the Protestant model, "lay elders" took the form of apostles in some parts of the movement. What many thought was the return to a biblical model of ecclesial life lacked a proper Catholic character in the para-ecclesial model that had developed in some sectors. There were some in the movement that kept this tendency in check. (I can remember debates in our community on this very point.) Others, for a variety of reasons, did not. This is one of the reasons why the Church hierarchy specifically intervened on a number of occasions to help ensure the development of a Catholic model of lay ecclesial life. This was the late adolescent period of the movement. In the late 80's early 90's - at least here in the states - there was an enormous rift in the the CCR and the covenant community structure. Those who desired a more protestantized model went one way. Those who desired a more Catholic model, went another. Some left the movement altogether. (I would put myself in the third category, although my separation from the CCR had begun before the big break, especially as I became more and more exposed to the Christian East.)

Since then, the character of the CCR and the Catholic "Covenant Community" structure has changed and become even MORE Catholic and mainstream, at least here in the states. None of the ideals of the CCR have been lost - conversion to Jesus Christ, love for Sacred Scripture, an emphasis on the charisms of the laity, and evangelization. They have just become even more identifiable with the Catholic tradition and traditional forms of Catholic life. Some have even returned to the "prayer group" model in the parish from the early days, which I think is a good thing. (Also some prayer groups never joined the Covenant Community movement.)

- The propensity to look for extraordinary manifestations or experiences of the Holy Spirit. This is - and always shall be - a temptation within the spiritual life, whether you are the member of a Carmelite convent or a CCR prayer group.

- The use of "tongues" as a form of spiritual prayer. I remain unconvinced by either side at this point. I know you see it as a demonic or purely psychological phenomenon. Archbishop Paul Cordes differs from you on this point, and you will be happy to know he does not where a coat and tie at Holy Mass. The point is debatable, and it is certainly not a point upon which my salvation hinges. Clearly I am not sympathetic at all to your extreme position (the demonic) in this regard.

As to the blindness of the Church's shepherds regarding the CCR, I think you are being more than a bit presumptuous.

Gordo

Dear Edward,

BB!

With respect to Cardinal Suenens, we need to be careful when we classify him as a "liberal."

He was certainly perceived as such by Latin Catholics - but a number of things he did was actually inspired by his love for the Eastern Catholic Churches!

For example, he was very much in favour of a married Roman Catholic priesthood, as in the EC Churches - that was when Pope Paul VI really cracked down hard on the Cardinal.

And traditionalist Latin Catholics, since Vatican II, have tended to eye with suspicion ANY borrowing from the Eastern Churches as a stream of liberalism in the RC Church.

So we need to be careful . . .

Blessed Seraphim of Platina made a number of good points about the pentecostal movements, to be sure!

He pointed out about cases during mass Protestant Pentecostal vigils when "fire" would come down from "heaven" to destroy Catholic relgious images . . .

"Could it be," Bl. Seraphim asked, "that the 'lord' is anti-Catholic?"

Alex

Alex,

Cardinal Suenens also played a critical role in the restoration of the permanent diaconate (open to qualified married men) in the Latin West where it had become merely a transitional role to the presbyterate and in the Catholic East, where it had virtually disappeared as well. (The Orthodox always preserved the diaconate, although it was greatly reduced from its glory days to a purely liturgical role.) His speech at the council on the diaconate played a pivotal role in turning the hearts and minds of the other bishops in attendance towards restoring this ancient order. And he drew on the experience of the early diaconate and the Christian East. All of this is documented.

I wish more Cardinals would wear suits and ties if it brought about results like that!

Gordo

Dear Memo and Gordo,

I like a lot of the things you've both had to say.

I used to be involved in the Charismatic movement -- during my undergrad at Steubenville and for a couple years following -- but am not currently.

Regarding your suggestion to David:

I believe I should like to visit such a group. Have you any suggestions about how to find one in a given locale? (That process doesn't seem to be as straightforward as e.g. finding the nearest Ukrainian Catholic parish.)

Appreciating any help you can give,
Peter.

The renewal has had positive effects in the Latin Church, but unfortunately equally devestating effects.

The things that you mentioned have always been emphasized in the traditions of the Eastern Church and all her beautiful traditions. Of all the things you mention, I don't see were the East falls short and in that sense, I still don't see what the CCR would offer the East.

I agree wil you perspective up to a point. I would take it farther though. I think the Eastern Catholic Church and Her traditions are a corrective to the CCR.

In contradistinction, if the West would embrace her authentic traditionsand if people would live the spirituality that the West has to offer, I don't think that the West would even consider the CCR. It would disappear.


All this said, I personally do not have any major issues with the CCR per se. The excesses are what I take contention with, which I know most involved in the CCR do too.

I will say though, that for me, I really outgrew the CCR and it really is to me an infantile and falsely-modern approach to Catholic spirituality. I don't see it as a universal call from the Holy Spirit. I certainly don't see it as a gift from the Blessed Trinity.

Rather, I see it as a legitimate personal style of devotion with certain aspects of a spiriutality.
All this should make painfully clear to the reader of my post that I am not against the CCR in the Latin Church. As for the Churches of the East, I just don't see what it has to offer and it is best left outside of those Churches.

I have stayed out of this discussion on purpose. However, the thing I have noticed in our 27 years of involvment with the Charismatic Renewal is the maturity that is taken place. Yes, you have problem areas - and as long as we are merely human you will. But, then there have been bad popes, bad patriarchs, bad bisops & priest, religious, and bad layity, so pointing a finger at a true minority of people doesn't work. The good fruit that has been born as a result of the Charismatic Renewal in the Roman Rite far outweigths the wrong - or the good that people have done poorly.

What I have seen in the Renewal, is a return to the Upper Room. http://burningbush.beatitudes.org/english/index.htm
Even the congress for this year with Pope Benedict is of that essence http://burningbush.beatitudes.org/english/upperroom2006.htm

Most of those I know who are and have been active have developed a 'Carmelite' spirituality of sorts. A quietness, great peace, yet there comes tremendous worphip and praise, all in it's time and place. A beautiful witness to the power of the Holy Spirit leading his people. A wonderful maturity in life in the Holy Spirit.

We in the East are so blessed with the powerful worship of the Divine Liturgy and the consistancy that our walk has brought. Yet at some point in our lives we say yes, at some point we ask Jesus to stir up in us a flame taht the world cannot extinguish. This is what the CR does for many souls, it is the fiat of sorts, their lives are changed forever - never to look back but always looking forward towards Christ and our Heavenly Father, through the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit.

My husband says it is a methodology of theology, always beginning with the Father. God the Father initiates, how does he do that? It is by his sending his Son, the Word, Jesus made flesh. How do we receive the annointing of the Word? By the power of the Holy Spirit. So there is a constant essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and no matter where we enter into the Trinity we enter into that cycle of love.

All I desire to say is Jesus I want more! More of you Jesus! More of your Holy Spirit! More that I may grow in greater love of God our Father! Amen!

Pani Rose

Wisdom!
What else then can be said. Thank you Pani Rose!

I'm not sure how to measure the impact. Certainly one can point to many, many positives, such as the list I came up with of different organizations that have their origins in the CCR. (Including FUS where you go to school...at least in its renewed status.) Certainly there have been bad things as well, but I think the movement has been actively correcting many of these excesses and is on a good track.

I never said the East falls short in anything. With that said, we don't always fully live out our traditions, which include the ones I highlighted above. In that sense Ithink we could use a little "charismatic" boost! (Especially in recovering our zeal for evangelization!)

I think you make some excellent points. If in fact the CCR is all that it claims to be, it is a movement of RENEWAL of the whole Church, not a movement that creates an artificial separation within the Church (charismatics and non-charismatics). As baptized and chrismated Christians we are all "charismatic"! The forms of worship often associated with the CCR movement are historically conditioned and do not reflect the essence of the movement, IMHO. The more CCR moves away from those cultural designations and focuses on the five points I already outlined (personal conversion, evangelization, love for Scripture, emphasis on the lay apostolate and reliance upon the power of the Holy Spirit) according to traditional forms the more effective its reach will be. This to me is the crowning transformation of a place like Steubenville whose stated desire to promote a "dynamic Catholic orthodoxy" aims for the right balance between living faith and ancient tradition. In this sense, the CCR as a movement should decrease and Christ and the Holy Spirit in the life of the average Catholic should increase!

Agreed.

I agree to a point. I am sympathetic on the feeling of "outgrowing" the movement. I feel the same way. I am grateful for the many ways in which I was formed in the movement. But ultimately, its forms of worship do not aid me in my spiritual growth like they once did. As far as "falsely-modern" it depends on what you mean. As far as a "universal call" and "gift from teh Blessed Trinity" that depends. Are we all called to worship according to the forms adapted by the CCR Movement? NO! Are there aspects of the movement that bespeak a universal call to holiness and apostolate? Yes! In so far as the movement reflects the latter, I think it is a universal call. In so far as it reflects a more personal tastes for prayer ourside of Divine Liturgy or Holy Mass, it is as you say a " legitimate personal style of devotion with certain aspects of a spirituality."

See what I just cited in my post. I would not advocate for a Byzantine Charismatic Renewal movement per se....but would call for a renewal of our charisms as a Byzantine church!

Gordo

Gordo,

You comments on my posts I can say have been quite accurate. I am happy with your readings of them.

Your final statement I find to be most satifcatory and agreeable with what I was hoping to express in my few postings.

I agree, we, the ekklesia could ALWAYS use a renewal, that is to say a deeper embracing of our traditions and charisms!

It seems then, that for the West, the Charismatic renewal seems to be, in many ways, an embracing of certain aspects of spirituality and traditions that had seen decline in the West.

We in the East must then too, come to embrace the traditions and Charisms already so readily accessible. In this way, imo, the East is not only a witness to the 'separated' Eastern Churches, but also to the West.

I think it is something clearly supported and recognized by Pope John Paul the Great (who is a saint to me and who I miss and love so very much!) in Orientale Lumen. He speaks so highly of the East!

Amen, Pani Rose! You put it so beautifully.

This thread has helped me to articulate many of the things that I have felt over the years as someone who grew up in the movement, but have never been able to share. As I have said, it was largely a very positive experience for me and very formative. I am very grateful to my parents and the leadership of the CCR. It has been a rough road in some ways, but it has also come to a beautiful fruition, especially as the CCR has come to encounter and embrace traditional forms of spirituality. A tree without sap is dead and sap without a tree dissipates in the heat of the sun. To be a living organism requires both, and I believe that there is a new synergy between traditional expressions of the faith and the CCR. May it continue to renew the Church!

God bless,

Gordo (clearly I have failed in my inability to refrain from posting...oh well!)

Gordo and Laka - excellent points!

For the Steubenville-ites and the former ones too It is funny I was thinking when you hear the truth, the truth will set you free, just then I looked up and where was the arrow pointing? By Marcus Grodi, dated 1-19 'The Truth Will Set You Free'

This is teaching very much like that we have set under for many years...You decide

Franciscan University Connections
Listen especially to the one on the Holy Spirit.
http://gabriel.franciscan.edu/connections/schedule.htm

I have, like Pani Rose, avoided this thread, but since Steubenville has been brought up, I feel compelled to comment.

For starters, I have nothing against being a Charismatic. In fact, I have Charismatic experiences all the time. For example, every time the priest/deacon invites the faithful to approach with fear, faith and the love of God-- that right there is an invitation to holiness. I can't find, nor do I know no other way of having such an intimate spiritual moment as I do when I go to Communion.

Will going to Communion make me speak in tounges? It hasn't so for and I am not expecting it to happen. Yet when the choir sings, "Recieve the Body of Christ, taste the Fountain of Immortality!" I feel nothing (for a lack of a better term) but the Spirit of God within me. That to me is the ultimate Charismatic moment.

So with that said, I move on to Steubenville. I have been on the campus several times, and have attended both the Easter Vigil Mass, and the Fellowship of Praise (FOP in campus-speak). The latter is basically a praise and worship night usually once a month, but at both the Mass and at the FOP, I have seen various manifestations of various "Charisms."

At the FOP, I witnessed many people crying, shouting, speaking in tounges, and prophesies being made. There is a "Discernment Team" that well, the name says it all. I do not question the sincere intentions the several thousand people have in attending, yet I do question the actual validity of many of the things I saw. Seeing people running around and being hysterical to me is just being caught up in the energy of the people there. The music, the amount of people, being among your peers, and the whole focus of the evening can really work someone up, so I doubt that if much of what is going on is indeed truly manifestations of the Holy Spirit. IMO, a lot of it is succumbing to peer pressure. And if the Holy Spirit was truly in a lot of these people, I'm sure the bars in town afterwards wouldn't be so filled, our various escapades of some of the Households wound't take place.

Off campus, but at an all-weekend event called a Steubenville Conference, I attended one night, since my older brother was involved with it.

I walked in when there was a rapper-priest from Brooklyn finishing up a talk. Right afterwards, the organizer of the event came to the mic and said there was to be a Eucharist Procession, and not to be fightened if one were to hear various things such as hysterical laughter, sobbing, shouting, being slain in the Spirit, etc. I took that with a grain of salt and expected none of that nonsense to occur, because it was going to be a Eucharsitic Procession. I was expecting the arena to be filled with people on dropped-knee and in total reverent silence.

The priest then came from the stage with a Monstrance and proceeded to walk around the front, down the aisles, and up the stairs. All of the sudden, a lone teenage boy stood up and starting laughing hysterically. Pretty soon others followed suit, and then there was loud sobbing, screaming, people singing, talking in tounges, and then, people passing out and falling down.

There were security guards ready to carry the "slained" people (mostly young girls) outside to the plaza. I got up and left when 3 girls infront of me fainted, one hitting her head pretty hard. No one was really instructed to catch them really....

When I went outside to the plaza, there were over 25 people laying on the pavement, one being given mouth-to-mouth, a few with oxygen masks, and one being carried to an ambulence.

I'm sorry, but when bodily hard comes in to play, I highly, highly doubt the work the Spirit involved.

How are we to truly know if this is the work of the Spirit?
How are we truly to know if there is not some demonic interfence?
How are we truly to know that one has the "gift" of tounges, or prophecy, or translating the tounges?
Couldn't one just go along with it and make up stuff?
How could things like this go on, with out proper instruction or warning?
How much of this could just be mass hysteria, or getting into the moment of it all?


Now, I will restate myself: I do not question the true intent of the soul of the person attending such Charismatic events, but, isn't it possible that a lot of this is misguided or somehow influenced by energies other than good?

I remember reading a story of the Desert Fathers, and when asked what is the hardest virtue to attain, the Abba responded by saying to pray! He said that the devil is hardest at work when we try to pray, because that then defeats his constant vigil to lead us into sin and temptation. So at a Charismatic event, wouldn't Satan and his minions be working major major major overtime?

If the Charismatic movement was an authentic way of obtaining the Holy Spirit, then would all of us, as Eastern Christians be "baptized/slain" in the Spirit or be speaking in tounges or translating or giving a prophecy every time the priest invokes the Holy Spirit at the Epiclesis? Read the Eucharistic prayers; look how it is centered around the intercession of the Holy Spirit. I sure haven't seen anyone passing out or babbling at *any* Divine Liturgy I have ever been too. Same thing at the prayers at Pentecost.

If one, as an Eastern Christian is looking for a Charismatic-type group to belong to, I would suggest taking a look at some of the Athonite Fathers, or St. Seraphim of Sarov, or St. Passiy Velychovsky, St. Mary of Egypt. These holy men and women practiced true Theosis. They experienced Christ in ways we could only wish for.

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith. (Hebrews 13:7)


Sorry for such a long post.

Christ is Risen!

-uc

Some of what you have discribed is nothing I have ever seen or experienced, the laughter and such. We have been in Alabama for 20 years now, so things may be very different. Yet, even in my taking teens to the university of conferences, I never witnessed what you have spoken of as far as what seems a type of 'hysteria'.

The Conference I went to that one night was in Southern California, where I am originally from, and I can say for sure people out there are much different than in the Deep South or out here on the East Coast, so perhaps various happenings at the Conferences are based upon demographics of the atendees.

My older brother at FUS is totally into that stuff Charismatic stuff and was at the Conference I described.... :rolleyes:

-uc

uc -

Thank you for our post. I think the questions your post raises are extremely important ones, and I would think are also foremost on the minds of the average Catholic - Eastern or Western - regarding some of the phenomena associated with the CCR.

First of all, let me tell you that I am a graduate of Franciscan University and know first hand some of the things you address here, although when I was there these events were referred to as "Festivals of Praise". (Perhaps they are called something else in California...) I attended these FOP's a number of times early in my tenure at Steubenville, but tended to avoid them in my Junior and Senior years. (This was around the time that I began to rediscover more fully the Catholic tradition of the East.) Nevertheless, some of the things you mention I have seen personally, while others are quite beyond my experience, especially the laughter part...this is known in some circles as the " Toronto Blessing [religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu] ". Ever since I heard about this "blessing" I was suspicious of it and see it only as a psychological release. Again, this points to some of the difficulty of the Protestant connections that the CCR has maintained that Edward and I have discussed.

What an incredible and beautifully worded point! As St. Ephrem the Syrian and Harp of the Holy Spirit has written, "there is fire in the bread, there is fire in the cup"! The Divine Liturgy is the true and authentic Pentecostal moment recapitulated in the midst of and forming the ecclesia gathered around the Eucharist. As Eastern Christians, ours is an epicletic spirituality, and the culminating epiclesis in our worship should be regarded as an outpouring of the Holy Spirit and His charisms upon the Gifts and upon the Faithful. Fire in the Bread indeed!

I'm glad that you put that in quotes. There may have been some visible manifestation of charisms in your experience, but certainly not all were.

It is difficult to respond to every point you bring up. To help me, I will quote Archbishop Paul Cordes in his book, Call to Holiness: Reflections on the CCR:

Sorry for the long quotation. A few brief points:

1. The "outpouring of the Spirit" is a subjective experience of the objective grace/divine energies of the Mystery of Holy Baptism and Chrismation. As with any subjective experience, it can be easily misconstrued by the "subject" who fails to fully understand all that is experienced internally. This can lead to behaviors that are more reflective of the emotional state of the individual, and not necessarily correlated with the action of grace.

2. The "outpouring of the Spirit" is also an experience which clearly can engage the whole person, including the emotions. Difficulties arise due to the spiritual, personal or pyschological immaturity of the subject when the "outpouring" itself is reduced to the emotion experienced. This requires serious pastoral guidance on the part of the Church's pastors and more mature lay Christians. This doesn't mean being a "wet blanket", but rather aiding the individual to understand the nature of what was experienced and its place in the spiritual life.

3. The emotions experienced during the "outpuring of the Spirit" can be intense, considering the depth of the conversion one is undergoing personally (perhaps analogous to - or synonymous with the Eastern concept of Penthos at its earliest stages). I have seen the effect of this first-hand with a friend and fellow student who was taken to a Charismatic gathering while high on LSD, experinenced a major conversion, was completely delivered of his addiction, put on a plane to Steubenville and enrolled one week later in classes. He is now a father and husband and growing in prominence as a faithful theologian of the Church. God does indeed work wonders...

4. Early on in the conversion process, there is a natural tendency to seek out the consolation and cleansing felt during the initial "outpouring". Much like a "newborn" who seeks to be close to the breast of his or her mother, the desire to feel close to God is very powerful at this stage. I think God who cares for His "lost sheep" now returned (and that is DEFINITELY the case with many of our young people) permits a certain measure of consolation to continue as the process of healing takes place. But it is unhealthy on a number of levels to expect to stay here - to "pitch one's tent" as it were on the mountaintop. It becomes pastorally problematic when such individuals resist taking up the "cross" of discipleship, including facing times of spiritual and emotional dryness. This is why a good spiritual father as a guide early on for an individual is vital.

This is why I think the FOP's serve a purpose in many ways as a vehicle of initial conversion. It is not for everyone to be sure, and not everything that occurs can be said to be "of the Spirit"...some of it can be more of a "human" reaction than anything else. (Some of the incidents you mentioned out in California are a case in point. Cordes addresses the issue of being "slain in the Spirit" and chalks it up to an unhealthy and potentially damaging practice in the CCR. I've seen many things, but not quite to the level you mentioned.) But this also touches on one of the problematic issues I have had with the CCR, especially in its earliest stages, but even to a certain extent today - the temptation to perpetuate the emotional experience of the initial outpouring. The danger is obvious, and it can lead to an infantile spirituality and spiritual stagnation. This is one of the reasons why the pastoral wisdom of the Church has seen fit to help inject critical aspects of traditional Catholic spirituality into the CCR.

I'd continue to comment, but as the king of the lengthy postings , I will only add that I think your questions are important ones and will defer to others and their responses.

Indeed He is Risen!

Gordo