www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches

Gordo,

You're right-- it's Festival of Praise.

I'll keep this very brief because I have a plane to catch in a few hours.

You bring up an interesting point in regards to the pastoral wisdom of the Church. I've never thought of it that way.

I will respond further tonight to Gordo's post and for sure others, but for now, I gotta jet!

(man that sounds like an Alex joke :p :rolleyes: )

-uc

I've read this thread with much interest.

I grew up Methodist, and it was through the evangelization efforts of charismatic Catholics that I converted to (Roman) Catholicism 14 years ago. Also, I attended Franciscan University for a while, and I live very close to (and often interact with) a charistmatic Catholic community. In general, I have nothing but good things to say about all the charismatic Catholics I know. I'm not charismatic, but I feel that in most cases, charismatic Catholics are some of the most devoted Christians I have known. I especially appreicate their zeal for evangelization, which I wish more Catholics - Western or Eastern - would share.

That being said, I do have some serious concerns with the charistmatic Catholic movement. They are:

1) Baptism in the Spirit. This has been discussed, but I really think that in practice, this is seen as either an "8th sacrament" and/or the entry to determine if someone is a "real Christian". No charismatic I know admits this openly, but it seems to be the practice. For example, if a Protestant has experienced a "baptism in the Spirit", then most charismatics I know see no need to try to evangelize them to become Catholic. This seems to me to a serious misunderstanding of the importance of the Sacraments in our spiritual lives.

2) The Gift of Prophecy. In the community I'm familiar with, there seems to be the habit of most members to "speak for God". What I mean is that they will be praying out loud, and they will speak for God (or Mary) in the first person. Usually what is said is so ordinary and even pedantic that it seems to me to diminish the idea of God speaking directly to people (which I do believe can happen). Also, in conversation charismatics often say things like "the Lord told me...", "Mary told me to tell you...". It just seems to me that they get an idea and decide to assign it to God.

3) Speaking in Tongues. I really believe that the modern practice of praying in tongues has no precedent in Scripture or Tradition. Scriptural references to speaking in tongues always include an interpreter and/or the ability of everyone to understand the language being spoken. This is not what happens in modern times. It seems to me that speaking in tongues today is just a psychological phenomenon with no spiritual basis.

4) Emotionalism. My experience with charismatics is that they place much emphasis on emotional feelings, especially in worship. I have had charismatic Catholics tell me that they "get more out of" charismatic prayer services than Mass! The fact that they think the purpose of worship is to "get", rather than "give", shows a fundamental misunderstanding of why we go to Mass. Also, the whole idea of judging the worth of a worship service based on one's emotional response to it seems to me to be misguided.

As I said at first, I have great admiration for the zeal and faithfulness of individual charismatics. I truly believe that they love the Lord and try to follow Him as they see best. I just think that much of their practices are outside of Catholic Tradition and potentially harmful to less mature Catholics.

An added comment of little relevance: I really like the music of charismatics! I don't think they are appropriate to the Liturgy in most cases, but I really like to listen to praise and worship music at home and in the car. In fact, I'm right now listening to a praise song as I type this.

Hi,

You are right, it is not easy.

I have never been to Rhode Island, so I do not know any groups over there.

Perhaps the Renewal has some Diocesan-level contact information on your Diocese's web site?

You can ask them for directions to a good, orthodox, typical prayer group (or a few, if you'd like to experience the differences).

I also need to clarify that the Renewal has virtually no enforcement practices beyond the Diocesan level. That means that some Dioceses will implement measures in one way and others in another way, some will be quicker and in some others there will be delays.

For instance, in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, we are still trying to institutionalize Deanry- and Regional-level organization in a coherent and efficient way. We are doing good progress, but this same step was taken in the Archdiocese of Guadalajara (Mexico) over 15 years ago.

Good luck.

Shalom,
Memo

Francis,

For your info...

http://www.motherofgod.org/

PAX

james

Hi,

Thank you. You seem to be the achetypical success case for our movement.

We do not seek to "convert" everybody to a charismatic spirituality. We do not seek to augment our membership by keeping people in the Renewal movement.

Our model is to preach the Gospel to people who do not live by its values. Either because they have never heard of it, or because they have but have lapsed.

We preach the Gospel not only through words, but also by providing a spiritual experience by the attendance to regularly scheduled (usually weekly) prayer meetings.

Once people get acquainted with our spiritual "style", they undergo a brief, but intense formative moment called Fundamental Evangelization. It has other names in different places, we've tried to move away from "Initiation Retreat" because we failed to convey the relationship between that name and the Sacraments of Christian Initiation, the openness to the Grace of which is what we try to "Renew" in the people who take the Retreat, but it is still called that way. It is also called "Life in the Spirit Seminar", etc.

Usually, the experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" happens during this time, but not always.

After that, people enter a Basic Formation process typically lasting a couple of years during which they learn Christian doctrine and morals and they also develop Christian habits of personal and communal prayer by continued attendance to the general prayer group and also perhaps to a smaller group, with the purpose of giving mutual support and encouragement.

At the end of the Basic Formation process, people are free to keep coming, but are strongly encouraged to become active members in the life of the parish community. A few are called to remain in the Renewal and fulfill leadership roles, but the vast majority are expected to "take off" and pursue their own vocation to service in the Church.

Needless to say, not all groups implement all this, but this is the model.

I totally agree with your criticism. It is a real problem and we know it and we're working on it.

The only point I disagree with is "evangelize" Protestants to become Catholics. We don't do that. We preach the Gospel and we propose the Catholic Church and its sacramental life as the most perfect way to live that Gospel and to bring to maturity thist newly discovered relationship with the Risen Christ (in other words, holiness, theosis).

We do not force, however, people to leave their faith communities if they happen not to be Catholics.

We are very careful with superstitions, New Age stuff, etc. We do preach against these things. But we do not preach against Protestantism.

Perhaps that is why some charismatic groups fare well in Ecumenical affairs. Sometimes too well and there is confusion and/or indifferentism, yes, I acknowledge that. It is a fine line we need to walk there.

There are a number of angles to this issue.

First of all, I have to agree with you again. People talking like this are pedantic to the ears of people who do not use that kind of speech.

On the other hand, we need to consider it might be little more than that, a funny way to talk.

I am not sure how many of these people are actually claiming a direct, private revelation. As you said, that does happen, but it should be kind of rare.

When it does happen, though, a strict process of discernment should be in place to filter out things that go against Catholic doctrine or morals, things that do not edify the community in any way and any ideas of insubordination against the legitimate authority in the Church (Pastor and Bishop). These things cannot come from God.

On the other hand, expressions like "God told me He loves you". How to deny this? Or "Mary, the Mother of God and our Mother, is here with us tonight". Don't we proclaim this every time we confess we believe in the Communion of Saints?

Well, I believe many times it is as you say a psychological phenomenon with no spiritual basis.

But is this bad?

On the other hand, I think you are only considering the references to "Tongues" in Acts (the Apostles speaking once, each one listening to them in their own language, this we call Xenoglosia) and 1 Corinthians in which Paul mentions "Tongues" as a language we cannot directly interpret or translate (this we call Glosolalia, and it is different from Xenoglosia), exect when such interpretation comes itself as a charism of the Holy Spirit.

However, I think we are missing the quote from Romans in which Paul is deliberately abiguous about the Spirit and our spirit and goes on to say that when our words fail us, the Spirit puts in our hearts and tongues utterances we not always understand, but which God does.

I think this is supportive enough for non-interpreted Glosolalia

And it is. This is utterly wrong.

However, the opposite is also wrong. There seems to be a cultural thing common to Northern and Eastern European cultures to play down the value and role of emotions.

Emotions have their place in our spiritual life along with rational thoughts and physical needs.

God gave us our emotions and everything God created is very good.

Being "emotional" is not bad, as the prevalent Western culture tries to suggest.

Allowing yourself to get carried away by your emotions is bad, but so it is to allow yourself to get carried away by your thoughts or your physical needs and inclinations.

Christianity is the ultimate balancing act between the person you are now and the person you are called to be. Focus too much on either one and you'll loose the other.

Thank you.

And as I said before, that's why not all the Church is charismatic or even called to be charismatic.

The charismatic movement is just one more way within the Church. It will appeal to some, but not to all, just like every other movement or institute in the Church.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,

Thank you for your responses - they were very helpful.

Actually, what you describe doing is what I call "evangelizing" others to become Catholic. It would be prostelytizing to try to "force" others to become Catholic, but it is proper evangelization to "propose the Catholic Church and its sacramental life as the most perfect way to live that Gospel and to bring to maturity thist newly discovered relationship with the Risen Christ".

I have seen, however, in Catholic charismatic circles, efforts to make the Church seem like another "denomination" equal to others and to try at times to hide our Catholic identity (for example, calling priests "father", praying to the Blessed Theotokos, etc.).


This is how I usually see it. When I feel convicted to do something, I usually say, "I am going to do this and pray the Lord's Will be done". A charismatic might have the same type of conviction as me and would say, "The Lord told me...".

In most cases, it's probably just a case of "You say tomato, I say...". But I do think there is a danger that one believes that all their own personal convictions and feelings are directly from the Lord, and when they don't work out (because perhaps they were just personal feelings and/or desires), the Lord is the one that looks bad.


Actually, I don't think it is usually. In fact, I usually argue with my more traditionalist friends that there is no harm done with most instances of praying in tongues. But I will say that the belief that this is a "special" form of prayer that makes one different from other believers can cause unneeded divisions.

(Oddly, I have noticed that sometimes if a non-charismatic is going to be a guest at a community event, they will strongly hint to everyone to NOT pray in tongues, so as to not "frighten off" the guest. If this is really from the Holy Spirit, why can they control it's use then?)

Agreed. I have had strong emotional responses to spiritual events in my life, and they have strengthen my walk with the Lord. The key is balance, and it seems to me (from the outside) that perhaps the balance of some charismatics is off (but perhaps I'm just comparing it to the Western "John Wayne" ideal).

Hi again,

Just a couple of comments:

Which begs the question again: Are we talking about Renewal groups, Covenant groups or even less mainstream groups?

Because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not like demonic possessions. The gifts of the Holy Spirit work within the context of our freedom and natural skills and abilities (all of which are also gifts from God's Grace).

God is a God of order, and the order He established is that we have free will and we exercise the authority He gave us over the rest of His Creation.

God invites, suggests, recomments, commands, declares, pleads and even seduces.

But God doesn't force His children.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,

Could you please explain the difference between a "Renewal" and a "Covenant" group?

The group I am most familiar with was linked by Jakub above (the Mother of God community). I know that they are affiliated with the Archdiocese of Washington. I have heard them say that they are part of the "Charismatic Renewal movement", and also mention that they are a "Covenant" community. Which would they be, and again, what is the difference between the two?

Hi,

Well, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is one movement and the Federation of Covenant Communities is another movement.

Therefore, your question would be analogous to ask about the difference between the Franciscans and the Benedictines.

They're both Religious Institutes, but they have their own charism and internal regulations and organization.

Likewise, the Renewal movement and the Covenant movement are distinct and different.

We're both charismatic in style, but we have different organizations and priorities.

Yes, Covenant groups tend to have a more "hard line" approach, so your experience is entirely consistent with what I would expect from them.

And I agree, their music is quite good.

The Renewal is "milder", if you take my meaning, we are much more concerned to keep our Catholic identity and to be faithful to our parish- and diocesan-level authorities.

We tend to get along better with other groups and movements and we tend to be better inserted into the pastoral life of the parish.

Covenant groups are generally more vibrant and loud, they are less uniform in their praxis, less attached to the parish (it is not uncommon for them to setup parallel infrastructures and eventually emmancipate from the parish and start operating as a semi-autonomous house of prayer).

Zenit has a good description of the Covenant movement:

Covenant [zenit.org]

Zenit has not published the Renewal's file (I expect that to be done shortly), but they did have a nice article a few days ago:

Renewal [zenit.org]

Well, I guess it happens as with photocopies. People call them Xerox, even if they were not produced by a Xerox-brand machine.

It is not unheard of that other charismatic groups use the name of the Renewal to tag along our good name.

In some Dioceses, the renewal actually has the resources to "clarify" these situations, in some others, we just let it go unless there is a specific problem with the other group.

Shalom,
Memo

A small TV suggestion:

I don't watch the daily mass on EWTN very often; but I did tune in for today's homily, to see whether the priest would mention anything about the procession of the Holy Spirit (the Gospel for today is John 15:26-16:4a).

He didn't mention the procession (well, as far as I could tell -- I think I missed the first minute or two); but nevertheless I found it to be a very good talk about the Holy Spirit. If any of you happen to be near a TV this evening from 6:15-6:30 (approximately), you might want to listen to it. (Or if you want to watch the entire liturgy, it starts at 6:00, EDT. It will also be shown again at midnight.)

God bless,
Peter.

Hristos Voskress, ..... Boy oh boy, this thread is sounding like the 'holy rollers' that I was involved in in the '70's. This is one of the reasons I started serious questioning of the whole of Protestant, charismatic, anabaptist, reform, etc, etc theology.And, I was one of the worst, bashing the Orthodox/Catholic faith. I was drawn to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith, and pray that I never leave. A man who went thru the same type of silliness, and such, who converted to Orthodoxy repeated a moniker to me, that those who have the ancient, Traditional faith, and get involved with this form of heterodoxy, are referred to as "roman protestants", or those who 'wish' to have what they preceive as the greener grass on the other side of the fence. Again, back to my opining, 'you don't know what you got till it's gone'...! Soooo true, S Bohom, mik

Could you please point me to this "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and how it differs from actual Baptism.

Hi,

Well, for starters, Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament/mystery at all, so it is hard to answer your question beyond that.

Both are related, but not competing with each other, but rather, one pointing to the other.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal of New Orleans has a nice, brief article about it:

Baptism in the Holy Spirit [ccrno.org]

I do not quite get what's up with the two columns, they seem to be identical, but the content is pretty good.


Here is another article by none other than Fr. Rainero Cantalamessa, the Papal Preacher:

Baptism in the Holy Spirit [ccc.garg.com]

In some cases, I disagree with Fr. Cantalamessa's choice of words, but it could be a translation thing.


I hope these resources help.

Shalom,
Memo

Sorry, I am asking for Biblical and cites from the Church, not from the Charismatic movement itself.

I know you keep saying that it is not a sacrament but from my reading of your posts on it so far it seems as if it isn't a sacrament that it is at least considered as equal to one.

Seems everyone in the "movement" has experienced this yet you say there is no way to know if someone has experienced it.

Seems to be a strange.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice