www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches

Hi,

Ok, in the charismatic movements, we find Biblical support for the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit in the following passages:

Matthew 3:11
Mark 1:8
Luke 1:15, 41, 67
Luke 3:16
John 1:33
Acts 1:5
Acts 2:1-4
Acts 4:31
Acts 8:17
Acts 9:17
Acts 11:15-16
Eph 5:18

I'd recommend, however, that in order to understand how and why we do so, you refer back to the two articles I sent earlier.

Well, the second URL was NOT from the movement itself.

It is from Fr. Rainero Cantalamessa, the Papal Preacher. That is, the man selected by Pope John Paul the Great to preach to him.

Fr. Rainero has been a long time friend and guide of the movement, but he is not a member himself (officially, no cleric can be an active member of the movement, because the movement is for lay people, although a good number of deacons, priests and even bishops are active participants in the movement and we are very grateful for their ministry and guidance).


Now, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does deal with the issue of Charisms, which are related to the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit, please read articles 798-801.

Can I ask what makes you think so? Both articles I sent before explain rather clearly that we do not attribute to this experience any sacramental grace, but rather, we consider it a new and fresh "openness" to the sacramental graces we receive in our Sacraments of Christian Initiation, especially Baptism (hence the name connection).

Well, in your Liturgy, you confess quite a few times the Awesome, ineffable, incomprehensible God.

Why does it sound so strange to you that we cannot proof an experience with God? Why does it sound so strange to you that we have a hard time even coming up with the right words to describe this experience?

Shalom,
Memo

Matthew 3:11 -- speaking of Baptism

Mark 1:8 -- speaking of the difference between the Baptism of St John the Baptist and Jesus, not that there are two baptisms, one with water and one "of the Holy Spirit"

I am going to stop there, as it seems the rest are taken out of context just as these first two are.

Strange, just finished a class on the Teachings of the Catholic Church were the only text book was the Catechism of the Catholic Church and at no time in the class did the professor mention anything about "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" nor is it mentioned in the CCC anywhere.

I am only going by what you and other supporters of the "movement" are saying. It appears that this "Baptism" is treated as something more than it is.

In reality, it creates two classes of Christians. Those who have not had this "Baptism" and those who have but then you claim that you can not know who has had it yet you do talk about those who have had it.

Comparing apples to oranges here. The existance of God and our experience with Him is not the same as some quasi-sacramental "Baptism of the Holy Spirit."

Seems more about emotions and feelings than it does about anything Biblical.

First of all, David, you are the one talking about the "quasi-sacramental" nature of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit". Perhaps early on in the CCR, that Protestant emphasis may have crept in, but I find nothing in any of the documents from the CCR or any official correspondence from Rome - or in the writings of Cordes and others that would assert such a thing. You state a position that is not part of the CCR movement and then ask others to defend why it is part of the CCR movement. Hardly seems fair, don't you think?

If anything, what is clear is that, as Memo has stated, the experience of the BHS (or in Europe, the "Outpouring of the Holy Spirit") is an experience of conversion - a greater realization of the sacramental grace given in Holy Baptism. It is perhaps somewhat reminiscent of the desert father who, when asked by a disciple what he must do to grow spiritually, he raised his hands in the air and his fingers became like 10 flames and said "You must become fire!"

I don't intend to go round and round with you on this. Clearly you have your biases against the CCR based on your experience. No official Church teaching imposes a different view, although certainly the Church has taken a different pastoral tact than you regarding the movement. If you plan to do any pastoral work in the church, I would recommend that you get Cordes' book. You can purchase it used on Amazon for less than $5, I believe...or any number of different books by Killian McDonnell, OSB who has done extensive research on the patristic sources. Better to dedicate some time to understand a movement you might encounter in a future pastoral leadership role than to let your limited experience color your views.

Again, I say this as one who is no longer "in the movement".

Regarding the purpose of this thread, I would favor a charismatic renewal within the Byzantine Catholic Church, but one that emphasizes the need for personal and ongoing conversion and evangelization while aligned better with our rich spiritual and ecclesial traditions.

Finis.

Dear David,

The charismatic renewal is something that is really "ultra vires" the Eastern Churches and it is often looked upon with suspicion by Eastern hierarchs as an import of "Protestant culture."

And Eastern Christianity gives the Holy Spirit such an explicit and overt role in its liturgical and sacramental actions so as to make the positive aims of the renewal practically redundant when applied to the Christian East.

As for speaking in tongues/glossolalia, prophecies and the like, I've witnessed these at charismatic meetings but whether they are legitimate or not is something the Latin Church doesn't investigate as it would the case of saints' miracles, for example.

Linguistic anthropologists studying glossolalia have sometimes found people are speaking languages that have died out and use this to support their views of a "mass human consciousness" and the like.

Tongues in the early Church were designed to help spread the Gospel and their impact was that unlettered apostles could speak in the languages of visitors to Jerusalem etc.

What the role of "tongues" today could be is something that is unknown. We learn languages the old-fashioned way. And much of what one hears by way of "tongues" at meetings is simply garbled gibberish. The real danger is when groups require you to speak in tongues as a "proof" that you really have been "baptised in the Spirit."

The Eastern Churches see this as Theosis and it is up to the Spirit to determine the time when He will inhabit a soul with His special charismatic gifts. Ascesis is central to this process - and, quite frankly, where is ascesis in the charismatic renewal? It resembles, too much, a "feel good" spirituality and almost a presumption that one "has the Holy Spirit" due to a kind of mediumistic experience.

Again, that is the Latin Church's concern, not ours.

The Eastern Churches are focused on Theosis as a process - and this is divinization in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father.

Praise the Lord!

Alex

Permit me to intrude with a personal experience I had with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement.

About two years ago I attended a Friday evening 'Marian Mass' with one of my sisters who is RC. At the conclusion of the mass, the priest invited individuals to come forward and receive "the blessing of the Holy Spirit." Not knowing what I was in for, I went forward with my infant niece (and godchild) in my arms.

A row (not a line) was formed between the sanctuary and the first row of pews. The priest started dispensing blessings at one end of the row, working his way toward me (I was in roughly the middle of the row). As he went, Fr. Howie blessed the individuals before him verbally, made the sign of the cross, and then thumped them on the forehead with the palm of his hand. At that point the individuals to a person fell backwards into the waiting arms of people positioned behind them (apparently for just that purpose) and were lowered to the floor where they lay prone for a few minutes - most laid quietly with eyes closed, but a few were 'twitching' (for lack of a better term).

When Fr. reached me, he indicated I should hand my niece off to the person next to me (the one still standing), which I did. He blessed me, crossed me, and them 'thumped' my forehead with his palm. Apparently, he didn't thump hard enough, because I didn't fall over. The priest looked perplexed at this development and promptly repeated the entire process, giving me a much more forceful 'thumping' the second time around. Still not collapsing, Fr. muttered something under his breath and moved on to the person next to me, from whom I quickly recovered my niece before that individual joined the others on the floor.

Being the only individual who wasn�t 'slain in the spirit' (which I was subsequently told is what happened to the others) didn't bother me in the least. What did bother me were the looks I received from those present on my way back to my seat. Make of this what you will, but it was the first and only Charismatic Catholic mass I have attended, and if invited again in the future, I would kindly decline (or at least don protective headgear prior to being 'blessed').

~Isaac

AMEN! This is precisely why I wrote earlier that I believe that the Christian East fulfills many of the fundamental aspirations of the CCR.

Isaac,

I had to chuckle about your experience. Cordes writes about this phenomenon of being "slain in the Spirit" and is quite (rightfully so) critical. There were and are aspects of the CCR - especially early on - that were and are somewhat childish. I've known people that claimed to be pushed and I have also known others that believed that "being slain" was a critical visible manifestation of the Spirit's power and work...a way to determine if one were fully abandoned to the movement of the Holy Spirit at that moment.

Gimme a break.

IMHO, the faster the renewal puts away these childish things, the better off it will be.

God bless,

Gordo

Hi,

And I agree. However, I think there should be Western ways to fulfill these aspirations as well.

And I also agree. The whole thing of being "slain in the Spirit" seems bogus to me.

A deep prayer experience oftentimes brings peace to your soul, which permeates to your mind and body.

A peaceful body, just released of tension or anxiety is likely to fall asleep, and it happens. It has happened to me. In fact, if I needed to pinpoint an event to which I could attach the experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in my spiritual life, it would be that one time when I fell asleep during adoration.

However, I understand very well that I fell asleep, I was not "slain in the Spirit".

I disagree here.

Childish things are wrong for grown-ups, but entirely appropriate for children.

There will always be those who are just becoming familiar with God and His Love and His Salvation Plan for us.

This is the audience of the Renewal, so we do need some childish things for them.

Now, it is very important not to confuse childish with stupid. Children are childish, but most of them are NOT stupid.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,

But my reference was to "being slain in the Spirit", which you agreed was bogus. That was the particular example of "childishness" I was referring to.

There have been others, of course....

Gordo

Hi,

Not at all unlike some of my own experiences, and I am a member of the Renewal movement.

Shalom,
Memo

The Charismatic Renewal has offered the Latin Church a lot and has overall been positive. It's just like any movement and there are many in the Church.

The East could use a 'renewal' in so far as it only means embracing its traditions.

A Charismatic renewal in the East doesn't make sense. The Charismatic renewal doesn't have anything to offer the Eastern Churches. When the East recovers her traditions, what could the Charismatic Renewal offer?

I agree with OrthodoxCatholic's post. This says it all:

Christ is Risen!

THANK YOU! I agree with you 100%.

In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+

Bless, Father!

And I agree with the above too!!

Cheers,

Alex

It depends on how you define a "charismatic renewal". If you mean a renewal of the charisms received in Holy Baptism and Chrismation, than I disagree. I think the Church is always in need of just such a renewal in every age. Pentecost was meant for then and now and always in the church.

If by renewal you mean adopting the forms, expressions and character of the contemporary Latin CCR, then I agree with you.

The essence of the Church as ecclesia - an assembly of the different orders gathered to hear the Word of God and celebrate the Eucharist - is fundamentally "charismatic", without denying any of its hierarchical principles. To me, this is foundational to Eastern Christian ecclesiology. It also highlights the importance of the synergy of the charisms in Divine Worship.

The liturgy thus gives us the pattern of how those charisms can and should be exercised in the church's mission to the world. We need to continue to find ways to live the charisms at the altar of our homes and the marketplace.

Gordo

Father Anthony,

Truly He is Risen!

Dera Gordo,

For the Eastern Church, the fifty days prior to Pentecost is truly a great "awaiting" for the blessing of the Holy Spirit and a great renewal of our awareness of His role in the Church!

I like to think of the "kneeling prayers" as a way the Church protects us, in advance, from falling down too hard on the floor in the event that the Spirit overwhelms those whom He will!

Alex