www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Cardinal Roger in Ukraine

Cardinal Roger Etchegeray(Vatican representative) has been in Ukraine to commemorate the second anniversary of the Pope's visit to the country. During his stay he spoke to president Kuchma and extended the Pope's blessing to him. He also went to visit the Pecherska Lavra and had a meeting with the bishop of Pereyeslav-Hmelnytsky Kyr Mytrofon of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate where the cardinal confirmed that the Vatican will only have offcial talks and dealings with the MP canonical church of Ukraine. The Cardinal also said that he would not visit any other Orthodox Church. Kyr Mytrofon seemed to be very pleased with such comments and took the Cardinal on a tour of the Lavra.
In my opinion Kyr Mytrofon started to admire the Cardinal due to the red cap and red trimmings on the Cardinal's vestments. He probably thought to himself that they really did have something in common.
I was really disappointed when I read this article at RISU (Religious Information Service of Ukraine). What do I say to my Ukie Orthodox friends? I sometimes wonder how can I defend the UGCC when the Vatican representatives start making comments of this type. It seems that when the UGCC starts making progress with our true Ukrainian Orthodox brothers and sisters, a KILLJOY appears and ruins everything.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

This is why the Moscow Patriarchate is all up in arms when Patriarch Lubomyr embraced Patriarch Filaret the other week in a common moleben.

We Ukies have to stick together - we have no real friends or allies other than ourselves. The sooner we realize that - and that our divisions were caused by foreign church powers, political and religious at our great expense - the better.

The Vatican can continue to try and be friends with Moscow.

We don't have to be since Moscow is our brother - and we can choose our own friends.

But I think the Vatican will continue to offend Moscow in a number of ways.

And when the last offence is removed, Moscow will still be able to respond with "We won't meet with the Pope as long as the UGCC (read: our old backyard property) is still in the clutches of the damned Unia!"

And when will the Vatican politicians learn to stand on principle?

Alex

Dear Lauro:

I commiserate with you if that what's the "other side" is saying.

However, please consider the same event as below described:



Although the UGCC's pending request for elevation to a patriarchal Church was mentioned only in passing (last sentence, 3rd par.), it shows that the Vatican has not, and I think will not, shelve this very delicate issue.

Amado

Dear Amado,

You are our "great (Latin) Rite hope!"

But it is clear where the Vatican's inclinations lie.

And it isn't with "Kiev" - da?

"Rome go home and leave us alone!"

Alex

Well here I go, I know I will get smacked around for this one but....

I think it is proper the way the Catholic Church is set up and what the Catholic Chruch has said for it to act in this way.

Seeing that the Catholic Church has said that uniaism is wrong and the only way we will unite is with all Orthodox, not in a piecemeal way.

It is correct for ecumenical discussions to take place from the Vatican. I think that any other church that enters into ecumenical discussions with other individual churches without the consent of Rome are acting out of line.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

But the reason I say this is that;

1) The Catholic Church is one body, yes many separate churches but also one
2) When multiple groups from one body run around in these types of discussions thing get confused and messed up
3) We need one, unified, voice if we ever hope to have reunion


David

I just don't get this hangup about titles, eg., Patriarch instead of Major Archbishop, among the Ukrainians (and I DO have some Ukrainian blood in me, but it looks exactly like my Polish blood!).

In the Orthodox Church, several of the primates of AUTOCEPHALOUS Churches do *NOT* enjoy the title of Patriarch from ancient times, e.g., the Archbishop of Cyprus, and have never complained. The Primates of the newer Autocephalous Orthodox Churches of Greece, Poland, the Czech Lands/Slovakia, and Albania are simply titled "Archbishop" or "Metropolitan." The Primate of the Autocephalous OCA is "Metropolitan." So why does the UGCC need a Patriarch again?

Is it because of ethnic pride perhaps, a pride leading to phyletism? Is it mainly the disproportionately-small number of cyber Ukrainian UGCC members pushing for this? Inquiring non-UGCC minds want to know.

OrthodoxEast

Dear Alex:


Nyet! Nyet! Nyet!

The UGCC as a patriarchal Church will soon come to pass.

BTW, did you re-read that sentence I cited? Your own exact words!

I have this uncanny feeling that you have been busy pounding the Vatican hallways, or that you have a very powerful insider lobbyist!

Amado
(A silent supporter for the UGCC-KP.)

Dear David,

But I agree with the Vatican, especially on occasions like this, that the Unia is all wrong and that all Ukies should reunite in one independent Orthodox Church!

I can't agree more with Rome on this one!

I bow to the Mother and Teacher of all the Churches!

Alex

Dear OrthodoxEast,

I too have some Ukie blood in me - I'm looking at it in my veins right now - see, it really is blue!!

Phyletism is something all Eastern Churches have been guilty of - and have accused each other of - at this time or that.

In terms of national pride ("ethnic" only applies in North America) among the Churches wishing for a Patriarchate - you mean like the Serbians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Russians et al.?

If so, then yes, we Ukies have as much claim to a Patriarchate via Kyiv than the Muscovite Church or anyone else.

"Major Archbishop" is a term that the Vatican borrowed from the East, but has given a different administrative meaning to.

They Latinize everything . . .

Kyiv's claims to a patriarchate are the same as those of Moscow.

With the difference that Kyiv's claims remain with Kyiv and didn't go anywhere else.

And are you so convinced that the Russian Church isn't strongly nationalistic and even chauvinistic in an imperial sense?

Alex

Dear Amado,

Perhaps we should call you "Theist Doll."

How do you do it - be such a hit with the ladies I mean?

I hope you can bring more of them back into the Church . . .

Alex

Dear Alex:

I would welcome it if I were one!

But I have transferred effectively the proprietary rights in "Theist Doll" to "Theist Gal" and she has come to liking it, I see!

As to the ladies, practice makes perfect as you once said.

Am I a good pupil of yours or what?

Amado

Dear Amado,

Well, if you are a pupil of mine, you must have improvised somewhere along the line in a way that didn't occur to me . . .

Alex

About Phyletism. There are three different Catholic Patriarchs in the See of Antioch, the Maronite, the Syriac and the Greek one. And these Churches have or had more than one Bishop in the same city. Would that be Phyletism?

Dear Snoopers,

No, that is not phyletism.

Phyletism is when a Church so closely identifies itself with a nation that it knows only that nation.

A Church venerating only its own national saints is an example etc.

So, under the Administrator's plan for North America . . .

It's a good thing the Administrator is so democratic - I've been thrown off other Boards for much, much less in my lifetime!

Alex

Alex, even if Rome allows Cardinal Husar, Primate of the UGCC, the title of "patriarch," could not Rome then do what it did with the title of "major archbishop," as you say, i.e., transform it also into something strictly understood only in Latin administrative terms for the UGCC? Again, this Ukrainian UGCC hangup or fixation on titles! Sheesh! (Boy, I'm glad I belong to the OCA, where our Primate is styled and satisfied with the ancient and honorable title of "Metropolitan." The OCA hasn't matured to the point of being a patriarchal Church--yet! :-) )

OrthodoxEast