www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches

Dear Isaac,

I, too, had to chuckle a little at the sheer outrageousness of Fr. Howie actions. The idea of thumping people and expecting them to then fall down is bad enough; but for him to repeat the process on you after it "failed" the first time is really the clincher -- I don't know what comment I can really make about it except: "Whoa."

I wonder how many other good people have been turned away from the CCR by this same priest.

I also have encountered some bad apples within the charismatic movement (not of the same sort as you described, but I won't go into that now). But this was after I had been involved for a few years, so it didn't turn me off from the whole movement.

God bless,
Peter.

Hi,

I do not want to re-start this discussion, but here is a recent interview with Fr. Rainero Cantalamessa, Preacher to the Pontifical Household.

Father Cantalamessa on Charismatic Renewal [zenit.org]

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,

Thank you for posting this! This is my favorite part of the interview:

Amen!

Gordo

I am grateful to the charismatic movement for at least one thing, because it was partially in response to the Protestant Pentecostal theology underlying the charismatic movement, along with the poor liturgy associated with it at the school I was attending, that finally made me leave the Roman Rite and become Byzantine.

Actually, Todd, if you study the history of the school you attended, you would realize that the whole reason it is as full a Catholic institution as it is today - and a source of real renewal in the Church - is because of its conversion through the renewal in the 70's and affiliation with it in the 80's and 90's.

I stand by my contention that the CCR in its "purest form" can lead one to an authentic kerygmatic experience of Catholicism. It has to be allowed to mature into a more full expression of Catholic life (especially Catholic sacramental life), which has happened on campus.

I remember hearing a set of tapes of a retreat given by Archbishop Sheen some years ago. He stated that the charismatic movement was a threat to the Church. I am going to have to dig those tapes out and try to find that again. But I agree with his statement. The charismatic movement is, to me, thinly veiled protestantism. I wonder when "the spirit" is going to lead these neo-pentecostals out of the Church? It seems to me that little things like doctrine and apostolic tradition don't matter to charismatics. There is a bond, I have noticed, among local charismatics both Catholic and Pentecostal. You can be any denomination and it really doesn't matter what the Catholic Church teaches, as long as you experience the appropriate feelings. I view this as incredibly dangerous. My charismatic friends think I am un-enlightened and haven't experienced the gifts of "the spirit" yet. I tell them they can keep their "spirit," as far as I am concerned. I don't need educating to recognize false religion. It's pretty obvious. It is my opinion that the Charismatic Movement is the Arianism of our age, in that many of the hierarchy along with laity, are taken in by it.

Not as obvious as you think. Cantalamessa is no fool and I think his assessment is right on. Not every group or manifestation that occurs at a prayer meeting is authentically part of the CCR movement. I certainly respect the late Archbishop, but keep in mind he was speaking during the early part of the movement when it was just getting its bearings.

I also think that your observations re: the "feelings" standard is really more of an assumption on your part.

And yes - so dangerous that places like Franciscan University and EWTN emerged from within the CCR movement?

We should neither exaggerate nor diminish the CCR movement's virtues and vices. It poses no danger to the faithful with sufficient pastoral guidance. Your comparison to Arianism is positively absurd.

Arianism was the popular heresy of its day, so perhaps the charismatic movement is the equivalent in our touchy-feely, oprah-ized culture. Who knows? I suspect we will never agree on this. What the charismatic movement has to offer is not for me, and is not part of how I believe and worship. A fellow musician came back from a highly emotional retreat in the mountains and said she had seen the spirit. I asked if that spirit was brown, fuzzy, and looked anything like a bear. Charismatics have little sense of humor, apparently. However, it seems to me that when the movement is criticized, the response is along the lines of, "oh no, we're not like that. Some are, but we are the pure charismatics. You just aren't one of the illuminated ones, so you don't understand." I wish you well with that movement, but as I said, it's not for me.

Ebed,

As a student at Franciscan, I have to say that when I was not going attending a Melkite church, I went to Mass off campus and on Sundays I drove out of state for Mass.

Now, I am not as much an outspoken critic of the CCR at school, but I will tell you that I am uncomfortable with the fact that FUS is only interested in pushing it and no other spirituality.

The Byzantines haved one Divine Liturgy once a semester. Very sad considering there are several Byzantine Churches close by. Also, the Archeparchy is very close, why so little exposure?


Everything at FUS (with the exception of some faculty) revolves around the CCR. FOP's, households, Adoration, Mass, the Rosary, etc. You can't get a way from it.

Not only that, but several times a year they have Mass in the Gymnasium. The main Chapel is aethestically unpleaseing and the rock and roll worship circus performs at every Mass.

The only saving grace is that students can go to the Port and pray in silence in front of a the Blessed Sacrament (well and the Byzantine Liturgy once a semester).


But let's get things straight, I am NOT complaning about the faculty or the Catholic environment (which are both outstanding in my opinion). Besides that, I have met some wonderful Catholics there (like Apotheoun).

Your logic is...astounding. Any authoritative sources to back up your wild assertions? I can name quite a few in favor of the CCR.

No - we will never agree on this. But I will say that I am an ex-member of the CCR movement for a reason. It is not because I believe that it is heretical or Satanic.

This comes a little bit closer to my position on the matter.

Or...maybe they don't appreciate being belittled. What exactly did you hope to accomplish with that statement? Did you expect to help catechize your friend on the patristic caution regarding seeking after visions? I doubt she would listen to anything you offer after that.

To whom are you referring? Has anyone here claimed to be a "pure charismatic"? If so, I have not seen it. Does that mean that anyone who doesn't fit your wild version of what a charismatic is cannot now disagree with your charicature because they will be belittled as one of those arrogant "pure charismatics"? That's very neat.

I just disagree with people who either patronize or poke fun at others, many of whom have (recently) experienced a form of conversion in their life. Hardly an authentic Byzantine witness, much less a Christian one. And note, I say that as a recovering "Charismatics are inferior-aholic". I try not to set myself up as judge and jury over the experience of others in the movement anymore, and I would counsel you in fraternal charity to do the same. In fact, I have taken a posture of affirming all that is good within the movement - and there is much that is good...often in the hope of leading them to a greater good, which I would assert is the Eastern Christian pneumatological tradition.

Really? That's surpising, considering your positions. No - you really don't wish me well in that movement, which is fine because I am not IN that movement any longer.

Laka,

I think you offer a legitimate complaint. I will say to you that the pressure to be charismatic was FAR WORSE when I attended FUS many years ago. Actually, that was at the time when the Covenant Community had a decisive influence, with its advocates in position of real power. I was around when the community thing basically "fell apart" due to abuses of power.

They were just starting to rediscover the traditional forms of Catholic worship when I left.

Some things are defined as "charismatic", though, that may only be "youthful". Are you making that distinction?

And on my visits there, they seem to be offering a variety of "spiritualities" on campus, not just charismatic.

But like you, I found a refuge in the Eastern Churches through the influence of an Eastern monk and never desired to look back. It took me quite a few years to figure out that I did not need to look down on the movement that I had been raised in in order to be faithful to Tradition.

My sense is that if you are a positive witness to the charismatics of the Eastern tradition, you may actually plant some helpful seeds that will bear much fruit later on.

God bless,

Gordo

I have never been to FUS, and have heard good things about it, at least in reference to academics. A priest friend of mine visited there some years ago, and returned with stories about bodies lying on the floor for hours, etc. He thought the charismatics there were a bit over the edge. However, it is good to hear that some of the excesses are being corrected over time. As a Byzantine Christian, I just have to view all that as a Latin Rite phenomenon that has little relevance to the East. My own experience with charismatics locally, is that they are quite different from mainstream Catholics, and essentially Protestant and Pentecostal in practice. Perhaps this isn't true in other areas, but this is what I see here.

I can believe that. I think that Bishop Conlon has had a little bit to do with that.

As, the University has just recently hired a music teacher that offers ogan classes. He also plays organ once a month at the Organ Mass. He organized a Schola as well.

Unfortunatly, 'those types' of Masses are not offered on Sunday.


I have always been uncomfortable with this subject. Growing up, I attended churches that used the piano and such, with contemporary music.

It wasn't unitl I attended a Church deeply invovled in the Charismatic movement that I even encountered 'youthful worship'. It has continued to be my experience. So naturally, I don't make the distinction becuase I have never encountered a real life parish where that distinction existed.


You have your experiences, not much I can say about that.

As for my experience, I was shocked that the school was so charismatic. I was not expecting that. It's all my fault though because I didn't visit ths school first.

I would say that in retrospect, Christendom would have been a better chose for my spirituality at the time I got into FUS. Now of course, it really makes no difference. I have favorite teachers and my spirituality has matured and moved in a differnt direction. I am quite happy now to be at FUS.

I am not nit-picking, but I do want to clarify here. I didn't turn to the East for refuge. It was very hard actually. There were many things I was attached too. Rather, I immersed myself in the East and discerned about the numerous things that came along with it. I opende myself up to the East.

It was very difficult actually.

I love the whole church. Now, personally, I didn't have a problem with many things in the West. I like the NAB, the Novus Ordo and even the use of more contemporary instumentation and hymns and music in the Mass.

For me, I just found my spiritual home in the East. The Liturgy at the Melkite Church was ( and remains) beyond words. For the first time the Liturgy was my life. It WAS who I was. I felt myself (and still fell myself) inexplicably drawn to Christ.

For the first time, the yearnings fo Christ, the flame of the Spirit, and the Love of the Father I felt at a few moments in the Mass, I now felt in the Liturgy from the moment I entered the Church until I left. Even during the week I felt this.

Shortly afterwards, I felt myself looking forward (for the first time) to attending the Eucharistic celebration. I learned so much so very quickly.

Now, to be fair, I feel this all whenever I attend ANY Eucharistic celebration now. But what sustains me in aesthetics and in personal spirituality is the Divine Liturgy, the Eastern Church's traditions, even above the most beautiful Tridentine or Novus Ordo or Anglican Use Mass in the most beautiful Church.

What can I say, I love the Eastern Chruch, her traditions and her liturgy. It's just my spiritual home. i don't know what else to say about it or how to explain it.

In regards to the CCR, I just don't have any thing to say or do. My spirituality has much growning in the Eastern tradition and the CCR has nothing for me. I once was immersed in the CCR and for me, I see it as less than what I am working towards. It has nothing to offer my spirituality.

I don't know. Either way, I hardly see what else I could say about the CCR.

byzanTN,

I think that is a balanced approach. Charismatic experiences for anyone not familiar with them can be somewhat jarring the first time they are witnessed - even the 4th and 5th time! Not everything related to the CCR is irrelevant to the East, though. I like to recommend to charismatic friends that they read St. Simeon the New Theologian, St. Macarius and St. Ephrem. Many are wowed by the beauty of the theology that speaks volumes to the heart of a Catholic charismatic. They can identify with the teaching. My experience was somewhat similar. As I started to read Orthodox authors I felt very much that these men were writing what I had felt in my heart for years - but could not express. There was a fundamental identification, especially given the emphasis on experience within the East and the CCR.

I apologize for my harshness of tone with you before. Part of my frustration too is that, despite the weaknesses of the CCR movement, they are far more active than we are in terms of mission and evangelization...and they are far more numerous! Whatever ones assessment may be with the weakness of their theology in some areas, they have done much with very little!

Gordo

No apologies are necessary. I find it strange that we in the east possess the "Old Time Religion" that many profess to seek. Yet, we don't do a good job of sharing it or spreading it to others. This is something I don't understand.