www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West First Post, Some Questions from Wichita

Greetings from the air capital of the world.
This is my first post and I do have some questions for you EC brothers. When you answer, please answer like I question so I will not get confused. i.e.1 blah 2. blah ...............

1. Are all Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox? Or is the Eastern Orthodox Church the largest.
2. I have read that it may come easier to have full communion with the Oriental Churches first over the EOC? True?
3. Could an EOC like the Antiochen come into full communion with Rome without the approval of the Pat. of Const. ?

Dear Leoxpiusx, you can generally (very generally) divide the Orthodox into those who accepted the Council of Chalcedon (Fourth Ecumenical Council), and thus the remainder of the first seven Ecumenical Councils, from the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox.

The Greek, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian, etc. churches, the majority of Orthodoxy, accepted Chalcedon and the remaining three councils after Chalcedon.

The non-Chalcedonians (sometimes also called the Oriental Orthodox) include the Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, Syrians, Assyrians, Malankara, etc.

But that does not mean all Orthodox who accepted Chalcedon are in communion with one another, and you will find jurisdictions of the same ritual tradition not in communion with one another.

Regarding the Oriental (non-Chalcedonian) Orthodox churches, an important accord was reached between the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East which will likely be a springboard for much deeper dialogue with the Oriental Orthodox.

Leo,

As my time is limited right this minute, I'll deal with your first and easiest question.

1. Not all Orthodox are "Eastern Orthodox". That term, collectively, refers to those Orthodox Churches that use the Byzantine or Constantinoplean Rite in either its Greek or Slavic Traditions. For a full list of these Churches and a brief summation of each, see The Orthodox Church [cnewa.org] on the CNEWA site.

Eastern Orthodoxy is distinguished from Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, both of which you can also read about at that same link.

When you ask if "the Eastern Orthodox Church" is the largest, I'm assuming that you're asking if the Eastern Orthodox are, collectively, larger in numbers of faithful than the other (Oriental) Orthodox. They are.

Many years,

Neil

p.s. Randy, congratulations on your 4001st post

Dear LeoXPiusX,

Welcome to the Forum!

In one sense, "Orthodox" today points Eastward, although the Byzantine Orthodox are distinguished from the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East as discussed above.

There are "Western Orthodox" today, especially in the Antiochian Church.

The Oriental Orthodox have their own ecumenical discussions with Rome and have been arriving at mutual agreements on doctrinal issues, especially on the Person of Christ. I doubt that they will reach union with Rome independently of the Eastern Orthodox, but it is possible. The Georgian Orthodox Church was formerly Oriental, but then joined with the Eastern Orthodox (or Chalcedonian Churches).

And the Antiochian Patriarchate could "go over" to Rome alone, but there is no reason for it to do so.

If anything, its daughter Melkite Church, has been making overtures to the Antiochians to come into direct union with it (while keeping its communion with Rome).

And, Randy, congratultions from me as well on your 4001st post!

That is an amazing number of posts! How did you ever manage such a Herculean feat, eh?

Alex

Maybe it's because I talk too much... Thanks nonetheless.

Leo, welcome aboard from another Kansas resident on the prairie.

Hi,

Orthodox Ecclesiology is quite complex and it is very hard to compare with Catholic Ecclesiology.

If you want to find a single institutional organization called "The Orthodox Church" that you can compare to "The Catholic Church", then Good Luck, I haven't found one.

The term "Eastern Orthodox" refers to the various Churches of Byzantine tradition that accept the (first) 7 Ecumenical Councils in their matter and form.

These Churches are not all in full communion with each other, although all will recognize the others as Orthodox.

They generally regard the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople as "First among Equals", but that doesn' give him any jurisdictional authority over all the Eastern Orthodox.

Then you have the Oriental Orthodox, which are the Churches that accept only the first 3 Ecumenical Councils in matter and form. They are mostly in communion with each other, but not with the Eastern Orthodox, and there is no jurisdictional relationship between them whatsoever.

Some Eastern Orthodox regard the Oriental Orthodox as orthodox, or at least almost, but there are other Eastern Orthodox who regard the Oriental Orthodox as heretics.

Yes, there are more Eastern Orthodox than Oriental Orthodox, and the largest Eastern Orthodox Church (the Patriarchate of Moscow) is the largest Orthodox body of them all.

In addition to these two "families" of Orthodox Churches, you also have the Assyrian Church of the East. They accept only the first two Ecumenical Councils in matter and form, and they do not style themselves as Orthodox, but the Catholic Church regards them, together with the Churches of both Orthodox families as true Particular Churches, with fully valid sacraments.

The Catholic Church and several of the Eastern Churches have issued common Theological and Christological statements meaning that, although some of these Eastern Churches do not accept the formulations of all (the first) 7 Ecumenical Councils, at least some of them have "compatible" Theology and Christology.

Many Eastern Orthodox regard this "compatibility" irrelevant, they require full adherence to the matter AND the form of the declarations of the (first) 7 Ecumencial Councils.

Hard to say for sure, but I generally agree with this assment.

Yes, they could, and it has happened before in the case of most Eastern Catholic Churches.

None of the parties involved favor this kind of process any more, though.

Shalom,
Memo

Hello Alex,


Could you explain why you refer to the Melkite Catholic Church as a daughter Church of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch?

My understanding was that the legitimate elected Patriarch entered in communion with Rome, and it was then when a group of dissenting bishops formed an alternate synod to remain in communion with Constantinople.

Shalom,
Memo

I read your answer and got real dizzy. I am glad someone - can keep it all straight

Wouldn't it just be easier to consider anyone who eats oriental noodles to be a member of the Oriental Church??

-ray

That was my understanding as well. I'm curious to hear if there is another perspective, which no doubt there would be.

Gordo