www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West One diocese left w/o altar girls - opinions?

Well, the function of Altar Server is no longer exclusive of an ordained minister in the Latin Church.

I think other Churches, Catholic and otherwise, need to respect the right of the Latin Church to introduce this discipline change.

With that in mind, I do not see why women/girls need to be barred from altar service.

I need to clarify that I have been thinking this way even before my daughter Cristina decided she wanted to volunteer as Altar Server in one of our parishes.

Shalom,
Memo

Uhm, a genuine (if naive?) question to some of you:

Why do altar girls make you upset?

Dear Annie,

As a practicing Roman Catholic I didn't know there was a diocese left in the U.S. that DIDN"T use girls as altar servers. I must admit that when this was first approved in my diocese I wasn't all that thrilled with the idea. Now that it has become commonplace I really have no problem with it. My daughter assists at Mass on occasion at school as a cantor or lector and I would never discourage her from doing this on a weelky basis if she so desired.

As well as altar servers, I know Eucharistic ministers hit a nerve with many people also.
The priest is STILL and always will be the only one who can consecrate bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. What I find alarming is not the use of girls as altar servers and women as EME's, but the fact that there are people, who I know, who refuse to approach the Holy Mysteries if they are being distributed by lay people, especially if it is a woman. These Eucharistic ministers are there simply to assist the priest in the DISTRIBUTION of Communion. Some people will walk half way around the church to receive from the priest. I can only think they feel as though they are receiving something less from the EME.

If our Holy Father John Paul II (Memory Eternal!) taught me anything in the years of his pontificate it is that I must everyday and always strive to see Christ in others. To me one of those others is that girl proudly serving at the altar or that person helping distribute Holy Communion. Most importantly I try to carry Jesus Christ with me as I leave the church that maybe somewhere, somehow, someone else might see Jesus Christ in me.

Bill

Very well said, Bill. Though I somtimes fail to see the need for 10 EMC's to serve a 30-person congregation, I certainly share your sentiments.

God bless,

Chris

I am an observer, but were I Catholic, I would break that question down and ask it in a few ways:

What is the worship like in churches that have them? What other changes have accompanied this one?

Why doesn't the Diocese of Lincoln use them?

What other Christian groups does the use of altar girls draw the RCC closer to?

Maybe the overwhelming majority of Catholics don't care about some or all of the above, but those are the questions I would ask. I bet you would find the answer to your question by answering those.

Andrew

Women Deacons in the Orthodox Church [stnina.org]
Called to Holiness and Ministry
by Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald

Orthodox Women and Pastoral Praxis [stnina.org]
Observations and Concerns for the Church in America
Kyriaki Karidoyanes FitzGerald

It's funny, even in this journal which is very sympathetic to her view, it says

However, the author sometimes assumes much on some threadbare evidence.

Which I think says a good deal, and IMO is fairly typical of this sort of historical reconstructivism. If you search the St. Nina site, you'll probably find the story of the OCA Church that was found to be using altar girls by their bishop. They were disciplined and a letter came out saying the practice was to stopped and would not be tolerated.

Andrew

Why are females serving at the altar? Was the need so great the the discipline had to be changed?

I don't know when and why the practice of altar girls was started. I had my period of 20 years of "free to be me", until Jesus reeled this fish back to shore when I was in my early 30's.

With that said, I have 2 observations:

(1) The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church has a lot more important issues than altar girls. Assuming the Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. are still included in the term "Church", a lesbian bishop is a bigger issue than an altar girl.

(2) There is another post which bemoans the fact that kids don't go to Church anymore. If teenage girls are serving as altar girls, then teenage boys will be in the congregation.

JP

P.S. Just an aside before I add this reply. I could see a future Council of Nicea amend the Creed to refer to the One, Holy, Orthodox, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Then again, that may be too many adjectives.

Amen! to Father Incognitus's plan.

Please checkout "Our Byzantine Village" in Town Hall everyone.

And now for our regularly scheduled bickering.

Wouldn't Church Unity be better off without Apostasy such as Altar Girls. It is liberals that are destroying the Church that create the need for "Father Michael Marys." If it weren't for Apostasy, there would be no need for the SSPX and its sympathizers. Roman Catholics could simply Live, Proclaim, and Practice the True Faith.

Most everyone here seems to claim that Pope John Paul II is "Great." Well, this (Altar Girls) is one of the Great Apostasies and Impediments to Reunion that can be greatly attributed to Pope John Paull II.

And everyone please pray for the Dioceses that have Altar Girls, those that permit them, those that promulgate them, and those that defend them. Let us also pray for the poor girls that are led astray due to this Altar Girl bologna.

And let us pray that the Good witness born by the remaining Diocese without Altar Girls will never cease. Let us Pray for the Eparch of this Diocese.

Hospodi Pomiluj, Hospodi Pomiluj, Hospodi Pomuluj.

Andrew,

Good questions ! I'll try to give some good answers.


It's variable. Some parishes have very devout and reverent and pious worship. Some parishes� worship is poor. Most parishes� worship is somewhere in-between. The use of altar girls in the RC Mass has become normal in the U.S., so it really isn't a barometer of quality of worship.


Again, it�s variable. For example, in my last RC parish, the community was conservative and it followed all the rubrics -- and it had altar girls. Other parishes were not so faithful to the rubrics, and they had altar girls; and still other parishes seem to have jettisoned the rubrics as optional suggestions, and they have altar girls. Again, having altar girls in the RCC is now just normal in the U.S., and it isn't a barometer of quality of worship. However, it is indicative of compliance with the general move in the RCC to open up participation in the liturgy by the laity.


I don't know. However, it is a very conservative diocese, and the bishop there probably doesn't like the idea of changing traditional ways of doing things.


I don't know, but it's irrelevant. The RCC made the decision (at Vatican II) to open up participation in the Divine Liturgy more to the laity. Altar servers are no longer minor orders. Hence, having female altar servers doesn't violate male-only ordination. It does, however, open up participation in the liturgy to the laity more.

In short, I think a lot of people don't like change -- especially in their forms of worship, especially when they take their worship seriously and meaningfully. And, truth be told, I didn't like it much when altar girls were first introduced. My feeling was "Why don't they just leave things alone?" But, the sky didn't fall; the Eucharist is still the Eucharist; and we were able to practice the virtue of obedience till we got used to it and (at least for me and some others) grew to like it.

-- John

"Do not judge and you will not be judged; because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you. Why do you observe the splinter in your brother's eye and never notice the great log in your own? And how dare you say to your brother,'Let me take that splinter out of your eye,' when look, there is a great log in your own? Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

We are in the middle of Lent/Great Fast and I am troubled to my soul by many of the posts and threads I've been reading on this forum of late. It's time for me to take leave.

A fruitful and blessed Fast and Paschal season to all. Please pray for me, as I will pray for all of you.

Bill

John, thank you for answering the questions I asked. Just a few follow up questions.

Its not? One couldn�t for instance contrast the state of the mass before this innovation and how it has changed since in order to gauge its health? I�m not saying this one change could have by itself changed the quality or worship in its entirety, but couldn�t it be used as some sort of measuring stick? Couldn�t one compare the dioceses(soon to be diocese) that don�t allow it with the ones that do to see what might be different about the quality of worship and the level of devotion?

Do you think he is just averse to change?

I guess it could be irrelevant based on one�s perspective. I know it is innovations such as this that make a good many Orthodox Christians say that any type of Eucharistic communion with the Catholic Church is impossible. That would of course be irrelevant to anyone in the CC who was not interested in that or who themselves thought such a thing was impossible to begin with anyway.

This does lead me to another question though. What if the hierarchy decided the liturgy of the Eastern Catholic churches should be more open to the laity? What if tradition was set aside as it was in the Latin Church and altar girls came in to use in Eastern Catholic Churches? Would that be acceptable, and would my question be still irrelevant?

The Eucharist would still be the Eucharist if for instance the presiding priest showed up only to consecrate the elements but then went on his way to do something else. Does the minimum fulfillment of a sacrament really indicate the health of the worship that surrounds it though? What happens to the people who don�t grow to like altar girls?

Andrew

Bill, don't go. We need everyone's input. Take a break if you must, but come on back. You are welcome here.

-- John