www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West "East vs. West" is Inaccurate

Bottom line and question for the Roman Catholics here:

The filioque words that were added to the Creed generated confusion and much theological jabbering that has lasted for a millenia.

Again I ask: if there's no difference between Rome and the East in their understanding of the Trinity as some have asserted in this thread, why not just drop those confusion-inducing words from the Creed? Why cling to them since the heresy they were inserted to combat has receded?

I'm not sure why the Roman Catholic theologians who took part in the dialogue didn't ask for the anathemas of the East to be revoked, but perhaps they should have. Moreover, if that had been one of the "recommendations" of the agreed statement, I would certainly support it. I also support the removal of the filioque from the creed by the West, in both catechetical materials and in liturgical celebrations, which was also one of the "recommendations" of the agreed statement. I think that restoring the creed to its original wording would greatly advance ecumenical relations.

I don't know. I know that when JP2 went to Ukraine, he said the Creed without the filioque so it can be dropped. Why it hasn't been done so I don't know. Maybe that's what His Holiness Benedict will discuss with His Beatitude Bartholomew in November. Hopefully, along with some sort of a Reuninon Council, maybe that will also be in the works. If anyone on this Forum has any influence or contact with these Heirarchs, put in this request of mine.

Dear Nonna,

You are right in that dropping the Filioque would make reunion that much easier. However, I can only assume that formally doing so will require alot of diplomacy, alot of educating the masses, and alot of tact, as I am sure that there are many faithful and good Roman Catholics that will be utterly scandalized, perplexed, and upset at such a decision. All people need to be taken into consideration, not just us Orthodox.

As I prayed the Creed in Church today, I tended to focus more on the part that says 'In one holy, catholic, and apostolic church', at which point I insert a quick prayer, "may it be so" as I envision Christ embracing His whole Church, East and West.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Alice you said:

"You are right in that dropping the Filioque would make reunion that much easier. However, I can only assume that formally doing so will require alot of diplomacy, alot of educating the masses, and alot of tact, as I am sure that there are many faithful and good Roman Catholics that will be utterly scandalized, perplexed, and upset at such a decision. All people need to be taken into consideration, not just us Orthodox."

I say:

You are correct and may I add that so many of us Orthodox believe that the people will follow blindly whatever the Pope says. Believe me, there are as many 'triumphalists' in the RCC as there are in the Orthodox...and they certainly would be upset if their Church were to remove the Filioque in order to compromise to the Orthodox.

Personally, I find it of no importance.

Zenovia

Saint Gregory Palamas:

"...maintained that there is essence and energy in God, and that we do not know what the essence of God is, but we know and experience His energies. It is impossible for us to particiate in the knowledge of God's essence, but we can know and acquire experience of His energies. Likewise the Holy Spirit as essence proceeds from the Father alone, but as energy He is sent by the Son and also from the Son. The existence of the Holy Spirit, His manner of being, is one thing, and His disclosure is another."

SAINT GREGORY PALAMAS AS A HAGIORITE - by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos and translated by Esther Williams - pg 330

Maybe a nice compromise would be to change "and the Son" to "through the Son." This would reflect the thinking of St. Gregory Palamas and both sides already agree on this formulation.

Once again, I think the only solution is to call a Great Reunion Council. I pray that His Holiness Pope Benedict and His Beatitude Patriarch Bartholomew will have this on their agenda in November.

Dr Eric,

While I applaud your sugggestion at a "Great reunion Council, unfortunately this is a premature notion. The Orthodox Churches have a number of "housekeeping issues" that need to be attended to first. If they are not addressed first, i.e. calendar, diaspora, etc., any reunion council will be dooemed before it ever starts.

Let each get their own houses in order first, before a talk towards reunify the houses winds up with something totally unlivable.

Just my thoughts.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I see your point. We in the Roman Church also have to deal with our problems as well like the SSPX et al.

As Bugs Bunny said, "I can dream can't I?"

Dear Father Anthony,

We Orthodox have been trying to get our house in order for the past forty years, and all I see are more and more problems and divisions.

If I recall correctly, 30 plus years ago, the Patriarch of Constantinople said that in two years we will have an Orthodox council to resolve all issues. That never occurred.

What did occur was that in a few years, that same statement came out: In two years we will have a council. Then again in a few years the statement came out that: We will have a council in two years.

Well I've come to the conclusion, since problems keep arising, and the situation is such that a council can never come about because of these problems, and we keep spliting up into more parts and pieces, maybe our Lord is trying to tell us something.

How about we change our direction into one of love. A way so full of love for our fellow man and for our Lord and His Church that we would do everything to help form a union with the RCC. Then maybe, with the help of God and His Holy Spirit, (which everyone seems to discount in their discussions), all our internal problems might cease.

Zenovia

May I quote blessed + Pope John Paul II, "God the Holy Spirit, not human endeavor, is the source of Christian unity, although that Spirit-given unity had never been revoked by God, it had been damaged by human error and willfulness".

james

Who profits by this ...? The evil one...

While I agree that both houses need some cleaning, I want to change my opinion. If we wait until the perfect time and every thing is perfect, it'll never happen and the only place where you'll see a Christian Church is the western hemisphere because while we squabble Islam will overrun Europe.

This reminds me of those who want to diet, or workout, or stop smoking, etc... if you wait until conditions are perfect, then you'll still be waiting and get fatter, or more heart disease, or more lung cancer, etc...

I hope the time is now, I will still hope, I know there human weaknesses and frailties to overcome, but time is running out. I too share the anxiousness and dread of the fate of Europe. Constantinople and the East fell because the Church was not united. I hope that Rome and the West will be saved due to a united front. If the Church reunites, then Istanbul will get a new name, her true name. Because when the Church unites all the people will see Her light that cannot be hidden by a bushel basket. I pray for this day when I can go to any Apostolic Church and worship and receive Our Lord in the Eucharist. I want to be able to go to Assumption Greek Orthodox Church (as it is now known, it may have a different name in the future if we reunite) and receive communion from Father Joseph, who told me that he would refuse me since I am not Orthodox. I pray that they all may be one...

With all respect, the filioque is more than a housekeeping matter. Whether it is said in the creed or not by Byz. Catholics, the Roman Rite is deeply affixed to it's tradition which it demands the Eastern Rites adhere to, as are the Orthodox to their tradition.

And your comment about Islam also troubles me. For one thing, my understanding is that the Catholic Eastern Churches are bound to the understanding of other Religions expressed in the documents of Vatican II, and whatever the actions of militant members of the faith, that needs to be kept in mind; the understanding of the role of other faiths described in the council documents is itself another difficulty in the union of Christendom, as many Christains have issues with it's emphasis.

In addition, I am not sure that the unity of Christendom would stand in the way of any Islamic conquest, and the apocalyptic streak in me also wonders if dimished numbers of Chrostians are not inevitable in various periods of history. The Church has survived such onslaughts before in history, and by God's grace, rather than ours, we will so again. And if not..we know not the hour..not to sound like a Pentecostalist, or anything!

NW

Dr Eric,

I have to disagree. The EP can not by his own will call for a council. His Synod would have to, and then for only the EP. In the Orthodox world you would have to get the other Orthodox Churches to agree to a council. If they all jointly would move in that direction, then you would have a hope of the reunion council. Until then status quo I am afraid.

And Zenovia, that is how the church works realistically. :rolleyes:

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

When God wills it, when He feels that the time is right and that hearts are open, there will be a great moving of the Spirit for councils, like has not been seen since the early centuries of Christianity.

It may not be in our life time, and it may be in the face of a great, great threat to Christianity and humankind of some sort, (thus-definitely not being under circumstances that we will embrace), but NOTHING is impossible with our God.

As for the Orthodox council Zenovia speaks of, perhaps it is better that it has not taken place. When one thinks of how the second Vatican Council has changed the beautiful Roman Catholic culture I admired as a young girl, whether by misinterpretation or not, one must be weary of definitive proclamations and changes.

For instance, in the Greek Orthodox Church of this country which I grew up in, there were many changes of a non-official status for a period of about thirty years. Confessions had completely fallen by the way side as had fasting rules. It was not at all unusual to see priests eating meat on fasting days and even Fridays (one priest I know of urged his youth group to order hamburgers with him on an outing, and it was Friday)...however, slowly, the tides have changed back to traditionalism, and younger priests embrace the patrimony of the ages, handing it down to their parishioners. In a short period of time in many parts of the country, traditional Orthodox praxis and devotion have once again taken root.

I have heard that a great Orthodox council will have matters such as fasting rules, married bishops, shortened liturgies, etc. on its agenda. Any changes decided in concensus will then become more or less set in stone to be interpreted and misinterpreted, as they did for our Roman Catholic brethren, and that may not be a positive thing..despite the spirit and the intention.

Just some thoughts.

In Christ,
Alice