www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West dressing geese

While researching information on St. Micheal, I found this information on New Advent (aka Catholic Encyclopedia).

His feast (29 September) in the Middle Ages was celebrated as a holy day of obligation, but along with several other feasts it was gradually abolished since the eighteenth century (see FEASTS). Michaelmas Day, in England and other countries, is one of the regular quarter-days for settling rents and accounts; but it is no longer remarkable for the hospitality with which it was formerly celebrated. Stubble-geese being esteemed in perfection about this time, most families had one dressed on Michaelmas Day. In some parishes (Isle of Skye) they had a procession on this day and baked a cake, called St. Michael's bannock.

Now I realize by "dressed" they mean cooked, but is there any relationship between the cult of St. Michael and the strange suburban pagan ritual of dressing fake geese?

John

Dear Doctor John the Deacon!

Yes, this is an interesting tradition and I know of areas in England where roast goose is still given to the hired help around Michaelmas Day, or September 29.

Goose is akin to our turkey over there and to roast a goose was to mark a special feast day or holiday.

Roast goose was always the dish of choice for All Hallows' Day (preceded by Hallowe'en and our "All Saints Day") and Christmas Day.

(By the way, both Hallowe'en and Christmas in England had the same prefix for the greeting "Merry Hallowe'en" and "Merry Christmas" - "Merry" being "Merrig" or Old English for "Holy.")

Roast goose was expensive and so was the way lords of manors expressed their gratitude to their servants and renters of their lands when they came, four times yearly, to pay their dues.

"Michaelmas" by the way again, was the Old Sarum way of denoting a special holy-day, meaning "Today's Mass is in honour of ____"

Thus, Andermas for St Andrew's day, Johnmas for St John's Day (or the Irish "Seamus") Childermas for the feast of the Holy Innocents, Martinmas for, yes, you guessed it, and Lammas for the August harvest thanksgiving.

Alex

I doubt that there is any connection but I have often thought that the odd custom of dressing fake geese in seasonal costumes was related to the absence of liturgical observance in American culture, that it is sort of instinct gone goofy.
By the way, what sort of physician are you?

Alex,

There is no relation between the "mus" in Seamus and "Mass", nor between "John" and "Seamus" for that matter. "John" is rendered "Sean" in Gaelic; "Seamus" is "James."

Lammas, which occurs on August 1, is one of four major pagan festivals originally celebrated in the British Isles. During medieval times, loaves were baked from the first grains of the harvest and were blessed in a church ceremony known as the "loaf mass". "Lammas" may be a shortened form of that, although it's also been suggested that it's a combined form of "lamb" and "Mass" that was used in medieval times when lambs were offered as a tribute to feudal lords.

Many years,

Neil

I'm sorry Daniel,

I missed your question.

I run two parallel practices. I am a Hematologist (disorders of blood)/Oncologist (cancer). In addition to this practice I also take care of the terminally ill. I regard these as two separate practices because I use two completely separate sets of wonderful and dedicated health care professionals to assist me.

John

I know you will think I am nuts, but the association between geese and St. Michael continues to fascinate me.

More info on the tradition of Michaelmas:
http://www.2camels.com/destination100.php3[url]http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/ACalend/Michaelmas.html

Furthermore, in addition to keeping geese for food, and considering them as a symbol of perfection, geese were also kept as "protection." When approached by a stranger, geese will make such a racket that they serve as an effective alarm of possible aproaching trouble.

The only thing I have been able to find on the history of dressing geese (as opposed to cooking and eating them) suggests that this bizarre tradition began in Indiana in the mid to late 1980's.

I still think there is a relationship between St. Michael and this custom. Was this overt or was it the Holy Spirit at work? I wonder!!

OK, maybe I am trying to make something out of nothing, but every human custom proclaims the greatness of God in some way! Some (like cannibalism) are a little more imperfect than others.

I'll take my medicine now and lie down for awhile.

John

Dear Neil,

I'll have to tell my old chaplain and religion professor, Fr. Gerry Tannam of the Holy Spirit Order that he was completely wrong about the "Seamus" business!

I guess his years as an African missionary must have taken their toll!

I can see how "Seamus" can be derived from "James." But I've also read an article, written, I believe, by Fr. Andrew Phillips, about "Johnmas." I"ll have to contact him about it.

You're sure now?

"Lammas" is fascinating - thank you for that information.

In Ukraine and Russia, the third Feast of the Saviour in August is often called the "Bread Saviour" and loaves are brought to be blessed. In feudal times, bread was also offered to the lords as well.

Alex

Hmm,

Webster's seems to contradict your etymology of "merry". "Merge" or "myrge" was the Old English word, akin to the Old High German "murg" meaning short. Of course, the word "merry" is an adjective denoting delightful, mirthful, or quick and brief (as in"a merry pace"). "Halig" was the Old English word for "holy". "Halig" evolved into "hallow" as in Halloween and Hallowmas.

Bless, Father Deacon!

You should write to Father Andrew Phillips in England on his "Orthodox England" website and tell him that he is completely wrong.

If you have the time to drop him a line, please do let us know his response . . .

Fr. Phillips' writings on the subject are apparently respected by British historians.

He recently wrote an article to discuss the origin of "Silly Suffolk" which, according to him, means "Holy Suffolk" or "Selig" as well.

But perhaps they missed something and are wrong!

Let us know what Fr. Phillips tells you, Reverend Father Deacon in Christ!

God bless,

Alex

not sure if this is really off topic or not :rolleyes:

BUT Fr Deacon John said
Too true - and here is an entertaining factoid for you all.

Geese were used until very recently [ last year I think] as guardians at the whisky bonds just outside Glasgow !! They were very successful at their jobs as well as being visually attractive. :p


Anhelyna

Dear Anhelyna and Doctor John the Deacon,

And the saying, "Your goose is cooked" comes not from Britain, but from the bio of Jan Hus, the Czech reformer burned at the stake in 1415 after being condemned by the Council of Constance.

(I don't remember the exact source of this, I believe it is somewhere in the book "John Hus at the Council of Constance" but it is definitely in a new book published by a factoid collector here called "Now you know" - I'm getting that for Christmas. I say this in advance to try and avoid raising the "ire" of Neil - just in case ).

"Hus" means, of course, "Goose" and during public theological debates Jan Hus's enemies derided him with the nickname "you little goose, you."

And it stuck.

When Hus was arrested and imprisoned when he went to the Council of Constance to answer charges, the Emperor Sigismund wrote to him and told him that he and all Bohemia were worried about him.

Hus wrote back to say, in effect, "Don't worry - your 'Hus' (Goose) is not cooked yet!"

(I like that story so much that I really don't care whether Neil buys it or not! ).

Alex

Dear Neil,

I'm trying desperately to locate the article where I saw the "Johnmas = Seamus" thingy.

No luck so far, but at least I've ascertained that it came from an article written in the United States by a priest of the Antiochian Archdiocese in Nebraska.

In any event, it is unlikely that I will continue to look through my files over this matter for much longer.

I will say to you that I am totally honest about reading that - if it is true or not, I do not know.

And our Lord knows I speak the truth here.

But if you tell me that it is wrong or mistaken, and you have sources to back this up, I will accept that - period, end of sentence.

A good Thanksgiving holiday to you and yours!

Your beadsman,

Alex

Alex,

I'm not disputing "Johnmas" as referring to the Mass for feastday of Saint John; my disagreement was with "Seamus" as being the Gaelic linguistic equivalent of "Johnmas" or "Seamus" as "John", which is how I read your post.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Alex,

I have to go along with Neil on this one. I take Irish classes and Seamus is always used for James.
I looked up in my book Irish Names for Children and the following explains the name:

S�amus, g. -uis: Shemus, James; Heb. Ya aqob,
literally 'one who takes by the heel' (Gen.
25:25, 27:36), from 'aqeb, heel, hence to trip
up, defraud, supplant by subtlety; the name of
the Jewish patriarch (Jacob) and of two of the
twelve Apostles; common among the Anglo-Norman
settlers. It is honor of St James the Greater
that the name is used in Ireland, as in Europe
generally. In late Latin the name was found as
Jacomus, hence the French Jacques, the English
James and the Irish S�amus. Siomaidh and
Simidh (Jimmy) are pet forms.


This may be a little more info than anyone ever wanted to know, but why not.

One thing I love about this forum is you never know what new thing you are going to learn.

Thanks for all that you have put into this forum and I always look forward to your posts.

Terry

I never said anyone was "completely wrong", only what I assumed was your etymology of "merry". Since it is in conflict with what Merriam-Webster has published, Fr Andrew Phillips can take it up with them if he cares to do so. :p

Not everthing published on websites follows accepted norms of scholarly research, and should not be read as such, but given your background, you probably know that already.