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Sorry to take this thread further off topic.

In recent weeks I have had occasion to talk with some friends who are in turn friends with some of the professors and students at the Blessed Theodore Romzha Seminary in Uzhorod. While this is secondhand information it comes from several sources and, I think, is credible. When �Mukachevites� are asked about their ethnic identity most often they seem use the term �ponashemu� to describe their ethnicity. Some use �Rusin� or similar terms but none used the term �Ukrainian�. I found this interesting in light of Hritzko�s continuing insistence that these people consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainians. I asked my friends to ask additional questions as the opportunity permits, but it seems certain that the people of the Eparchy of Mukachevo consider themselves to be a non-Ukrainian ethnic minority living within the borders of present day Ukraine.

Another topic that was raised in my discussions with my friends was the fact that Carpatho-Rusins in Europe tend to look towards Russia � and not Ukraine - as a touchstone of Slavic ethnic identity. I have not thought much about this and need to do so. It reminded me of my mother telling me the story of how distraught her mother was when Czar Nicholas and family were executed by the Communists. It also raises the question as to whether the Carpathians look to Russia to somehow avoid being assimilated into the larger Ukrainian ethnicity.

Finally, it is curious that Hritzko chooses to refer to the �near complete assimilation of the Carpatho-Ruthenian Greek Catholics in the USA into the Latin rite church� without also referencing that the exact same thing has happened to the Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the USA. In fact, about 70% of adults who were born and baptized in a Slavic Byzantine Church � Greek Catholic or Orthodox � now worship in a Roman Catholic Church.

That many, many people of Eastern European backgrounds tend to assimilate in the USA after a few generations does not come as news, so we can leave it.
I would suspect that the Greek-Catholics of Transcarpathia have been heartily traumatized by centuries of domination by the Hungarians, and therefore do not readily assert their own national identity - one can easily find the same phenomenon in Poland, where instead of "po-nashemu" the relevant term is "tuteishnyi". Unfortunately, such people have come to think that they have nothing to gain and much to lose by getting involved in a discussion of ethnic identity.
Nor is it particularly surprising that many people of Transcarpathian background, and perhaps significant numbers of people who still live in Transcarpathia, would look to Russia as the source of a Slav identity - the whole pan-Slavist idea had that concept, and Transcarpathia is in an area where the pan-Slavist idea was quite popular. Russia was sufficiently far away to make it possible to view the Russian Empire through rose-colored glasses, so to speak.
Tsar Nicholas II wasn't even a slav by descent - his father was German and his mother was Danish. That did not stop him from claimng some sort of pan-slavist Russian hegemony.
It is not particularly difficult to find people in the Rusyn/Rusin/Carpatho-Rusin/Carpatho-Rusyn/Carpatho-Russian/Ruthenian milieu in the USA who claim a vaguely Russian identity, and are under the impression that the language which they no longer speak is Russian. Objectively, however, that language is not Russian, as anyone who still speaks it can easily discover by enrolling in a Russian course, or by trying to carry on a conversation with a Russian speaker. By any objective philology, these people are speaking a collection of tranitional dialects starting with Eastern Slovak and ranging to forms of Ukrainian.
It is sadly true that Ukraine has to some extent neglected this community; it would be sensible for the Academy of Sciences in Kiev to do research in Transcarpathia in several areas: linguistic, musicological, folk arts, geneology, etc. All in good time, one hopes.
While I fully agree with the desirability of greater local autonomy for Transcarpathia, there are a few agenda items which take precedence, incluidng getting the local Communists out of pawer, educating the next generation of Greek-Catholic clergy on the importance of treating their own faithful with respect and esteem, and keeping the Hungarians who covet the place on their own side of the border.

I would like to see acurate church census numbers for Transcarpathia. I know that the RISU
has some stats on parishes, but that site is biased (Ukrainian Catholic University). Are there any official Ukrainian governmental statistics for church membership in Transcarpathia?

Ung-Certez

The 2004 statistics prepared by Fr. Ron Roberson, CSP (who works with the USCCB and contributes to CNEWA) state that the Eparchy of Mukachevo has 320,000 souls, 315 parishes, 156 secular priests, 11 priest-monks, 16 male monastics, 32 female monastics and 54 seminarians.

The Apostolic Exarchate of the Czech Republic has 25 parishes, 34 secular priests, 12 priest monks, 12 male monastics and 5 seminarians.

I believe the statistics were published in the first quarter of this year.

Administrator,

Do these folks in Uzhhorod use "po nashemu" to decribe their ethnicity or language? That is basically an adverbial form as far as I can tell and it is widely used to describe the way one talks "our way."

Tony

Admin,

Father Roberson's stats are from Annuario Pontificio; the current numbers, from 2003 census data, appeared in AP's 2004 edition, published in February, as I recollect.

Many years,

Neil

That's the most disingenuous disclaimer you've ever had the gall to post.

The clear implication of both your posts referencing the Eparchy of Mukachevo was that it was a constituent eparchy of the UGCC - as you have espoused again and again. We all know that it isn't and that it won't somehow, by osmosis, become such by attending the synod of the UGCC in an observer capacity.

The term Greek-Catholic is not unique to the Ukrainians and a suffixed parenthetical designation of the nation in which Mukachevo is geographically situated do not make it a Ukrainian jurisdiction.

And, frankly, why I have broken the promise I made myself, to not bother exchanging posts with you so long as you continue this foolishness and boring exercise - it won't happen again.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

You stopped exchanging with me because the last couple of times you made posts concerning religious matters in Eastern Europe, you got all of the facts completely wrong. (Remember the adherance statistics thread ) - it was embarassing to say the least.

You have now twice attributed a statement to me, when in fact I have never made it. Perhaps in the future, rather than say I'm "disengenuous", why not just say the truth - you made a mistake. Again, reread your and C-U's posts to see where this foolishness comes from.

What you have to come to terms with, is that this church is in fact known as: The Greek-Catholic Eparchy of Mukachiv, Ukraine.. Since you have never been there, and you don't speak the language, and your grasp of Eastern European geopolitical issues is minimal, I'm not sure why you even feel a need to correct me.

Most peoples in Ukraine simply call it 'the Mukachiv Eparchy of the UGCC, which to them is the same. The fact that you don't approve of the word 'Ukraine' or 'Ukrainian' being included, is a personal matter and should be indicated as such.

Hritzko

Po nashomu

Tony,

In all three dialects of the Ukrainian language, (including Southwestern or Subcarpathian variants) this expression simply means: '(in) our way' or '(in) our language'

It's the kind of thing my parents (or grandparents) would tell us in Ukrainian and in a hushed voice when they did not want mixed company to understand what we were saying: "hovory po nashomu" (English translation: "speak in our language" which of course is Ukrainian.

I hope this helps.

Hritzko

Ung-Certez

You seem to be confused again, and perhaps you should retract your last comment.

The Ukrainian Catholic University also represents the Ukrainians from the Greek-Catholic Eparchy of Mukachiv, Ukraine. If it is biased (and you have yet to provide any details about this slanderous comment about a Catholic University) it would have been long ago exposed as 'Uniate propaganda' by the Muscovite's Patriarch.

The Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv trains a majority portion of the Greek-Catholic priests in Subcarpathia (ie: Mukachiv Eparchy). Further this institution provides ongoing resources and support for the developent of Greek-Catholism in ALL of Ukraine, and beyond it's borders.

The statistics the Ukrainian Catholic University provides include; atheists, Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and other groups.

The adherance statistics for Subcarpathian Ukraine's Greek Catholic Eparchy are NOT equal or congruent to the majority population of the region, but a minority. In fact, Protestant sects about equal the Apostolic adherance numbers.

To suggest that the Ukrainian Catholic University has favored the UOC-MP over the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Mukachiv (by skewing the adherance statistics in favour of the MP) clearly indicates your complete lack of understanding of church matters, history, and geopolitical events relating to the Subcarpathian region of Ukraine.

I look forward to your response - your comments are being monitored by Greek Catholics in Ukraine.

Hritzko

Dear Administrator,

I thought this information might help you better understand the issues:

I spoke to a friend of mine (in Ukrainian) yesterday who lives in Hartford (Connecticut) and who is a long time member of our Ukrainian Youth Association here in the USA. She did post-doc social studies (Brown University) in Subcarpathia Ukraine and has extensive experience working with women in the area.

She told me that young people today consider themselves to be both Carpatho-Rusyn and Ukrainian, much like the people on the other side of the Carpathians consider themselves to be both Galician and Ukrainian. The two terms are not mutually exclusive and asking them to choose one identity over the other would be like asking a New Yorker to do the same (ie: you can only be a New Yorker or American).

There are also Russians, Hungarians, Romanians, Romas, Poles, Slovaks and other nationalities in this border region.

The Ukrainian (united Ruthenian umbrella group) government does not provide statistics for a separate Rusyn nationality in the Carpathians, any more than it does for Galicians-Rusyns (which once was a Kingdom), or the Bukovynian-Rusyns (which once was a Dutchy), and Hetmanschyna rusyns, so forth.

The Russian who live there are for the most part NOT Rusyns who have lived there for centuries, and who have identified with the peoples of Moscow (ie: like members of the ACROD), but rather the decendants of the communists who were brought there from Russia after WW2 to industrialise the area. Today these Russian are mostly atheists, and who may now for political reasons have some superficial adherance to the Moscow Patriarch's church. They probably don't even know what Russia's royals were all about, let alone have shed any tears for them.

Uzhorod was largely inhabited Hungarian before the war (even during the Czechoslovak days), as was Lviv by Poles. The fundamental difference is that the Ukrainians (Rusyns) are now the majority population in Subcarpathia Ukraine and can now dictate that their language be used for official communication purposes. The Ukrainians (Rusyns) are now the majority.

Dear C-U,

This is some background information on your separatist movement:

HUNGARIAN PROFESSOR PLAN:

(1) Attempt to create separatist movement among very small Rusyn segment of society which does not feel it is part of Ukraine.

(2) Join forces with Hungarians who make up large minority in the region and who also do not feel they are part of Ukraine.

(3) Join forces with former Russians communists (from Moscow) who would like to create separate nation and continue in efforts to truncate Ukraine.

(4) Have referendum and gain 50% (plus 1 vote) and declare Carpatho-Rus an independant nation. A new nation is born ! Horrah !

Here is why it won't work.

(5) Hungary annexes Carpatho-Rus and continues centuries of Magyarization and Latinization of Orthodox churches (see official Slovak Greek Catholic Web site for more info).

and / or

(6) Russia sends in troops to support it's people, and stays.....forever a la Kaliningrad or Moldova.

Before you call out for autonomy, think out the consequences not the Hungarian professor propaganda.

Hritzko

Thank you Hritzko, but I was asking the Administrator to clarify his post and the information he has received. I have studied modern and ancient Slavic languages and I have been to Uzhhorod. I simply don't think people say they are "po nashemu" but rather they speak that way.

Tony

Dear Tony,

I get your point now.

The term the administrator is looking for is plain old NASH, which roughly translated in Ukrainian means; 'one of ours' or 'ours'.

Here are some examples:

Czhy vin nash ? (Is he one of us ?)
Vin je nash (He is one of us)

I hope this helps.

Hritzko (real name )

PS to Administrator: po nashomu is two words and not one.

Yes Hritzko, nash, if memory serves me still works in all the Slavic languages to stand for "ours," it is not peculiar to Ukrainian.

Tony

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Fr. Deacon John wrote: "...Second, the quote above, IMHO, has more to do with good taste than cultural expression... Plastic flowers on the altar? I'd rather not see any if plastic was the only alternative..."

Actually, it is a form of cultural expression. They see the plastic flowers as "moderny" or MODERN!

I remember visiting a gorgeous wooden church in the village of Brezany, Slovakia. The church was built in the 1700's. The care-taker (this was before it was assisgned a priest) went inside and turned on a switch and the gorgeous crystal chandlier lite up as did THE ENTIRE IKONOSTAS!

Someone in the village had the "forethought" to bring back strings of Christmas lights with little silk pointsettias and they were strung across the ikonostas and around the main ikons.

To say my mouth hit the floor is an understatement!

They were VERY PROUD of their church and these lights. They were "MODERNY" or modern and not some "back-ward village" anymore!

This mind-set is NOT un-common. I was visiting with relatives when one of the neighbors came in carrying a parcel that was wrapped in paper. He opened it to reveal a gorgeous hand-embroidered shirt. It was his grandfather's wedding shirt and he wanted to trade the shirt for CD's and some musical equipment that he could not purchase in Slovakia. The was almost 75 yrs old and belongs in a museum.

I asked why he didn't want the shirt anymore. He said it wasn't "moderny". He wanted something that he could use!

It's also interesting to note that the little wooden church in Brezany had a Latin Rite altar table in front of the ikonstas when I was there. I asked why the altar. The caretaker said the entire village decided to join the Latin Rite church rather than become Orthodox when the Greek Catholic church was out-lawed. At the time I was there, they were having Divine Liturgy 1 Sunday a month and they were re-introducing Greek Catholic customs to the villagers again.

JHMO....

mark