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Tony,

A good question. That is something I asked, too, but didn�t get a good response on. It appears that they were not referring to language but ethnicity. I will pursue the question.

Admin

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Hritzko,

I don�t doubt that many young people consider themselves to be Carpatho-Rusins who are now part of the larger country of Ukraine. It is only natural that people are slowly assimilated into the larger ethnicity of whatever country they are part of. Still, there are those people from Mukachevo who are insulted at being considered ethnic Ukrainians and you always seem to ignore this when presented with it. I am always surprised to find that the same Ukrainians who fiercely opposed forced russification by the Communists are so willing to force their Ukrainian ethnicity upon the many different ethnic peoples who now live within the borders of Ukraine.

I disagree with your �New York / America� example. What you have been advocating on a continuing basis is that Carpatho-Rusins are really too stupid to realize that they are no different than ethnic Ukrainians. This logic works only if one also admits that ethnic Ukrainians are really no different than ethnic Russians. A better example of is to compare use of the term �Yankee� to Ukrainian and �Southerner� to Carpatho-Rusins. Someone from Kiev may consider the term �Ukrainian� much like someone from Vermont considers the term �Yankee� (a perfectly natural term). Yet to someone from the Carpathian Mountains the term �Ukrainian� is as offensive as the term �Yankee� is to someone from the deep South.

Personal experience counts for a lot. I have several friends who have active friendships with Carpatho-Rusins in and near Uzhorod. I have cousins from greater Uzhorod who now live in Canada who attend Ukrainian Catholic parishes and report that they really don�t feel at home in those parishes since, as Carpatho-Rusins, they are treated as outsiders. None of these people consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainians. Your belief that they are ethnic Ukrainians doesn�t make it so.

Admin

The argument that Hritzko has "been advocating on a continuing basis is that Carpatho-Rusins are really too stupid to realize that they are no different than ethnic Ukrainians. This logic works only if one also admits that ethnic Ukrainians are really no different than ethnic Russians" is not without flaws.
Both ethnic identity and national identity (and they are not the same thing) depend on two things: objectivity, and the freedom to make one's own decisions. If one's decisions are not at least related to objectivity, one can land in some difficult situations. Nor is there any need to resort to pejorative language - one can easily disagree with someone's ethnic ideas without calling people stupid. To name a name, Paul Fekula was not in the least a stupid person. That doesn't make him omniscient.
Language is an important component of both the ethnic identity and the national identity. That presents a flaw in the comparison between Ukrainians who maintain that they are not Russian, and Carpatho-Russians who maintain that they are not Ukrainian. There does exist a Ukrainian languge; that is not even an issue. Quite neutral philologists will support the assertion that what the Carpatho-Russians are in fact speaking (at home in Transcarpathia) is a collection of Ukrainian dialects. So far, what attempts have occurred to create a distinct Carpatho-Russian language have not been overly successful (Yugoslovia recognized this purported language, but since Yugoslovia is no longer with us, I don't kow what the current situation in that region may be).
One can get along quite comfortably speaking Ukrainian with CArpatho-Russians, especially if one goes to the trouble of making certain adjustments with particular vowels.
Russian and Ukrainian is another matter. Granted that with some effort they are mutually intelligible, the same can be said of some of the Romance languages whose distinctiveness is not in question. They are certainly not the same language. The Soviet Union went to huge trouble and expense to compel everyone in reach to speak Russian - the result was predictable.
An interesting problem, with many other ramifiations, but it's not necessarily necessary to explore them all now.
Incognitus

Ever see a Vermonter visiting Alabama trying to ask for directions?

As a non-Slav (or maybe a �stomach-only Slav�) I really don�t see huge differences between Russians, Ukrainians, Carpatho-Rusins and even Romanians. I have good friends from each ethnicity who are �super ethnics� and I do not consider them to be any more different than a Vermonter, a Virginian, an Alabaman and a Californian are from one another. Over the years I have asked many Ukrainian friends to describe the differences between Ukrainians and Russians and none have ever been able to do so without relying on "you have to be Ukrainian to understand". Any response is always similar to the distinctions one makes between New Englanders and Southerners.

My point is that it is difficult to take Hritzko�s claims that Carpatho-Rusins consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainians when the people from Uzhorod (the Eparchy of Mukachevo) tell me differently. His desire to convince us that if were a bit smarter we would consider ourselves to be Ukrainians and join their long-awaited patriarchate when it is finally (and justly) established remains totally unconvincing.

If the Carpatho-Rusins and the Ukrainians were really a single ethnic group there never would have been a need to establish two distinct ethnic jurisdictions in America.

OK, now you're just trying to p**s us off, aren't you.

hal

Hal,

No, not trying to upset you. I'm very serious. I just don't see any real or huge differences between the various Slavic ethnicities. I know that the ethnic Slavs themselves believe that there are huge differences. There are lots of examples of Russians, Ukrainians and other Slavs establishing whole parishes here in America because they didn�t want to worship with people from other villages in the old country who already had an established parish that was just across the street.

If someone wants to start a fresh thread explaining the differences between Russians, Ukrainians and other Slavs I�d be interested in reading it. Whenever I�ve asked Ukrainians to explain the differences the responses usually are no more than pirohi recipes or a variant on how the respective languages developed from Church Slavonic. All I ask is that it not include things like �in 3744 BC they started it by invading us�.

I grew up in a parish that was predominantly Carpatho-Rusin but also had a number of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians. They all got along and seemed almost identical to me. Today I feel more at home in a Russian Orthodox parish than I do in a Ukrainian Catholic parish (although this is probably because I grew up with Church Slavonic and not Ukrainian in the Liturgy). I always find it odd to listen to someone tell me that some of my ancestors were really Ukrainian but didn�t know it also try to convince me that the Ukrainians and Russians have absolutely nothing in common.

Admin

Hmmm� I was just talking with a friend who told me that if stomachs had anything to do with determining ethnicity then I am really Chinese since I eat Chinese food several days a week. :rolleyes:

Admin,

And you live in a great place to do so. Having once spent several months in Arlington on a project, I marveled at the excellent Chinese restaurants in the area (and reveled in trying them all, since someone else was paying for my meals ).

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

Is it possible that all of America does not have excellent Chinese food that can be delivered in 45 minutes or less? This might mean I will live in Northern Virginia forever!

Seriously, if you ever get back to greater DC I invite you (or / and Hal and Hritzko, etc.) to be my guest for lunch or dinner at a Chinese restaurant. I always recommend the Szechwan Holupki with broccoli. :p

Admin

Dear Admin:

I thought a big grin is supposed to convey humor.

I have never suggested that the Carpatho-Rusyns were really Ukrainians, nor do I have any intention of doing so. They can call themselves whatever they want to call themselves. If they do not wish to claim a "Ukrainian" identity, fine with me.

As for the rest, might I suggest that you invest in a good altas?

hal

Hal,

I missed the grin � I apologize.

I agree that you are not one to convince others they are really Ukrainian. Hritzko, however, has been doing this the whole time he has posted here.

As to an atlas, I do own several. Moscow is roughly where Boston is. Kiev is roughly where Washington, DC is. Romania would be the deep south. Uzhorod would be West Virginia. And those Czechs and Slovaks are in Kansas.

Admin

Dear Admin:

As long as we're having a laugh at it, I did like the bit about a New Englander asking for directions in the Deep South.

Also, are you saying that Kyiv, as Washington DC, should be the center of political power of the Slavs? I'll buy that!

Seriously, we Americans are a nation of immigrants - so I really do not see your analogy as being on point.

The Slavic cultures do indeed have common origins in the pre-historic Scythian, Sarmathian and other tribes (their names escape me), but migration patterns and subsequent historical shifts have created distinct cultures within the groups.

The proper analogy, I submit, would be to compare the Slavic peoples to the various Germanic, Celtic, Scandinavian, and Semitic cultures.

You wouldn't say that there's really not that much difference between a Jew and an Arab, would you?

Yours,

hal

Hal,

Not to a Maronite, he wouldn't

Many years,

Neil

Actual numbers:
1949 - 321k (possibly including all Czechoslovakia)
2002 - 220k Presov and Kosice
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/qview7.html

Hritzko: where do you get the idea of "less than 40,000" Greek Catholics in Slovakia?

What's the line from that famous Ukrainian comedy, MY BIG FAT UKRAINIAN WEDDING.... there are 2 kinds of people in the world, Ukrainians and those who "wish" they were Ukrainian???

:p

Administrator,

Perhaps the "even" in the above serves this purpose but Romanians are not Slavs, they are Latins, albeit highly influenced by Slavic culture and language, they are Latins and speak a Latin language.

Tony