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Hungarians have determined that outside of their homeland they are loosing 25 - 33% of their people every generation to assimmilatory forces.

Based on this rapid generational loss of their ethnicity outside of Hungary, rest assured that Hungarian Professor has only one goal, and that being; 'reconstitute as much of the ethno-Mygyars lands of the former Autro-Hungarian Empire as possible, and then incorporate them into the new Hungarian Republic before it (and/or it's neighbors) join NATO.

His cultivation of a Uhro-Rusyn (Hungarian-Rusyn) identity has been going on for centuries and according to almost all historians (even to Hungarians Professor's other books) this has been a method to assimmilate or keep the Rusyn in a position of servitude. He seems to be doing a great job with some of you.

The statistical numbers you present are his theory, but nobody's reality. If they were they would have separated long ago.

He has been paid well by Budapest for his work, and I give him credit for trying. Everyone has come to realize that his plan won't work because of the low overall number of people who wish to separate, and those who do are extremely polarized in terms of their immediate and long term goals (ie: hidden agendas that are not really that secret).

Hritzko

And this is different from Ukrainian nationalists attempting to assimilate other East Slavs?

I'm only familiar with Ruthenians unifying themselves under the 'name' of the largest group - the Ukrainians. For example, Buykovyvians, Galicians, Hutsuls, and Podollians, but that's about it. Some of these groups were in the past Kingdoms, Dutchies, Military colonies, etc... but now are part of the Umbrella Ruthenian group; Ukraine.

All of these main Ruthenian groups of Ukraine speak one of three dialects (or variants of) what is considered to be the modern Ukrainian language. So there was no need to assimilate. There has been some standardization and modernization which has occured but that is the norm for all modern languages.

Perhaps you can give me an example of a nation which Ukraine is trying to assimmialte ?

Before you answer, remember the silly stuff C-U posted, and the USA Byzantine Metropolia publish in 1971 about Ukrainians (according to you), only to have me post a recent BBC interview which states a quite different opinion.

Also, remember that out of the 250,000 Greek-Catholics in Hungary, only 3,000 still claim ethnic Ruthenian heritage. In slovakia it's 17,000. Cultural Ruthenian ethnocide was committed by the Slovaks and Hungarians over the past few decades. In Ukraine the Ruthenian identity has been preserved.

Hritzko


Hritzko

Hritzko, If you would be so kind as to document your prior claim of less than 40,000 Greek Catholics in Slovakia at present, we could then move on to consider your other claims.

Cultural Ruthenian ethnocide is being committed as we speak. Only this time it is being committed by the Ukrainians who are forcing Rusins/Ruthenians to be assimilated into the larger Ukrainian ethnicity of Ukraine. Since Hritizko is Ukrainian it is understandable that he would support this forced assimilation. The Rusin (Ruthenian) identity is being preserved only because the Rusin people themselves are refusing to accept this forced assimilation. The Ukrainians are doing to the Rusins exactly what the Russians did to the Ukrainians. It was wrong when the Communists did it and it is wrong now that the Ukrainians are doing it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Administrator:

The Ukrainians are doing to the Rusins exactly what the Russians did to the Ukrainians. It was wrong when the Communists did it and it is wrong now that the Ukrainians are doing it. [QUOTE]

The biggest factor of the assimilation of the Rusyns of Slovakia into the Slovak mainstream was, in fact, 40 years of Communist-sponsored Ukrainianization, in which the distinct Rusyn identity and language were supressed in favor of a Ukrainian identity and literary language that were alien to the people of East Slovakia.

--tim

No doubt about it. The modern Ukrainians are just picking up where the Communists left off.

And, for the record, no legitimate Rusyn cultural or political organizations are pushing for a separate Rusyn state. Whether it's Poland or Slovakia or Ukraine, Rusyns are citizens of those states, with all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

Citizenship and ethnicity are two separate concepts.

--tim

DJS,

Please note the statement should read less than 40,000 Ukrainians-Ruthenians Greek Catholics. The double label was used by the government from the first world war all the way until the early 1990's (ie: both the Republic and Communist Czechoslovakia).

The vast majority of the Ukrainian-Ruthenians have been assimmilated in to Slovak culture both during the interwar and post WW2 periods. Those who have remained with the Apostolic Churches have mostly become highly 'Latinized Slovak Greek-Catholics' and others have simply become 'Latin rite Slovaks'. The Ruthenian-Ukrainian identity has been mostly lost. Part of the problem is that the Ruthenian-Ukrainian Greek Catholic bishops had their power usurped by the Latin rite bishops who did what they do best: Latinized/Slovakized. For more information, please see this post:

Ruthenian-Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in post WW2 Slovakia - Short summary [uaoc.org]

I'm glad most still remain Christian - Eastern Ukrainians have not been as fortunate.

Hritzko

I'm sorry that you would say this since the only place Ruthenian-Ukrainian culture has truly survived is in Subcarpathian Ukraine. It's not that the Communists did anything in particular to preserve this variant of the Western dialect of the Ukrainian language, it's just that it's basically the same, therefore, it was easy to preserve.

There is however a much more significant difference between Slovak and Ruthenian-Ukrainian (to start, one uses the Cyrilic and the other the Latin alphabet) and many believe that this was at least part of the reason the Ruthenian-Ukrainians assimmilated into the Slovak (or 'Rusnak') culture. No serious linguists thinks otherwise.

Your comments are again baseless, inflammatory and unsubstantiated. Here is a much better analysis as broadcast on BBC international:

An interview with Vadim Rabinovich, president of the All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress:

"You will scarcely find a country in Europe which is more stable than Ukraine in it's tolerance towards ethnic minorities and it's absence of conflict."

Hritzko

If you think this about this statement, and then look at the statistics of Ruthenians-Ukrainians in Slovakia vs Subcarpathian Ukraine you rapidly come to the conclusion that this is false.

Again, the only place the Ruthenian-Ukrainian identity has survived in any significant numbers is in Subcarpathian Ukraine. It's not that the Communists did anything special to try and preserve the language, it's just that it's a variant of the Western dialect of the Ukrainian language.

If the Slovak Latin bishops had not illegaly appointed Slovakphile-Latinphile bishops to replace the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic bishops, (essentially usurping power from the Ruthenian-Ukrainian bishops) the statistics may have been much more encouraging in Slovakia today. Please see the following link:

Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Bishops loss of power in Slovakia [uaoc.org]

Hritzko

The Republican Ukrainians are of the 'Dontsov Integral philosophy'; all peoples of Ukraine are citizens who are to be given the full rights and priveleges afforded to them by the constitution. Any ethinic group in Ukraine can do as it likes, and seems to me that most do.

The Federal Government of Ukraine can't recognize what it (and most people) consider to be an integral ethnic 'Ruthenian subgroup' of the nation state. What next: Podollians, Kozaks, Volhynians, .....

Again, please take a honest look at Slovakia, Hungary, and the USA where assimmilation has been near complete in the last few decades because of the vast differences between Ruthenian-Ukrainian and the other languages.

The Soviet communists didn't do much to preserve the 'variant' in Ukraine - they didn't have to because it's basically the same as Ukrainian and remains so.

Political Ruthenism, including the codification of 'variants' has been used to the advantage of various Empires to assimmilate the Rusyns and not strenghten their identity. This is historical fact.

Hritzko

You're absolutely right, just as a nationalist government in Moscow would have been unable to recognize "an integral 'Little Russian subgroup' of the nation state."

But this debate must be mind-numbingly boring to most non-Rusyn/non-Ukrainian readers. I know this political rutheniak is tired of it and dropping out to travel to Budapest and collect my substantial fee for keeping the flames of political Ruthenianioonyism a burnin'.

--tim

Tim,

You have things backwards.

During the first World War there was an attempt at establishing a Carpathian-Ukrainian nation. The term 'Ukrainian' means 'free Rusyn' (ie: no Russian, Polish, or Hungarian Imperial masters).

The very short lived WW1 Carpatho-Ukrainian state did not survive because of a movement which sought to unite the Czechs, Slovaks, and Carpatho-Rusyns into a state known as Czechoslovakia. This movement originated in the United States of America. The Ruthenian Greek-Catholic priest Father Avgustin Voloshyn of Subcarpathian-Rus was one of the original 'fathers' of this union.

The United States of America and Western Europeans wanted Ukraine to be dismembered so that the least amount of it's territory would fall into Soviet Russia's hands. At the time, this made a lot of sense and so the Carpatho-Ruthenians participated in the establishment of the Czecholsovak Republic.

The Ruthenians had been promised by the Czechs and Slovaks that they would be able to self-develop into an equal partner. What happened in the end is that the Czechs and Slovaks did all possible to assimmilate the Ruthenians-Ukrainians and not permit them to develop into an equal state or partner.

The democratically elected Ukrainian-Ruthenians (double lable label was that of the interwar Czechoslovak government census) were undergoing rapid Slovakization and Latinization, and the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic church was no different.

The Ruthenian-Ukrainian bishops, intellectuals, and the majority of average citizens were desperate to find a way to preserve their millennium old Byzantine Christian faith and culture of Rus.

The establishment of a Carpatho-Ukrainian state was the only solution. Monsignor Avgustin Voloshyn of the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Church was declared president and a Carpatho-Ukrainian (free Rusyns) nation which was established and enjoyed the full episcopal support of the Ruthenian-Ukrainian Greek-Catholic bishops of Priajshiv (now Slovakia) and Mukachevo (now Ukraine).

The American Byzantine Metropolia must inform it's members in an honest way about this nation buidling event in the history of the Carpatho-Ruthenians and stop the manipulation of history to serve it's own agenda. Stop the endless unsubstantiated senseless propaganda.

QUESTION:

Why did the USA Byzantine Metropolia stand by while the Latin rite bishops usurped power from the Greek-Catholics and why does it not openly condem it ?

The Carpatho-Ukrainians have come a long way since your ancestors left for the United States of America. Today, the United States is in favour of Ukraine developing into a strong nation, with democratic, pluralistic, and western Christian ideals. The USA is now on the side of the Ukrainian Republic (so said Rumsfeld and other top American officials in Kyiv last week) which will be part of the EU and NATO within 10 years.

The same situation applies to Poland. Do you honestly believe that Poland would permit the Lemkos to return on mass to their ancestral homeland ? (btw - the answer is no way !).

Contrary to what you have been posting, the Poles have been trying to assimmilate the Lemkos into their culture for centuries and today consider what is left of them as a 'Polish subculture' and not Rusyns or Ukrainians. The Poles have no problem codifying a Lemko language so long as it brings it closer to Polish for eventual complete assimmilation. The Slovaks have no problem codifying Rusyn so long as it helps to bring it closer to Slovak so that they can finish the job of complete assimmilation. The Hungarians will codify Rusyn so that they can bring it closer to Hungarian, which of course is Hungarian Professor's 'Budapest' mandate.

Political Ruthenism has been used by the Imperials for centuries to subjugate and / or assimmilate the peoples of Carpatho-Rus. The American idea of creating a Czechoslovak (with Subcarpathian Rus) nation was Imperial politics no different than that of Hungarians and Poles.

Hrizko

To compare the centuries of ill treatment including an act of genocide of the Muscovites towards the Ukrainian-Rusyns is dishonest to say the least. You also consistently ignore the fact that the USA Metropolia parted it's ways with the old country a few generations ago. You also ignore that the fact that democratically elected peoples of Carpatho-Rus became Carpatho-Ukrainians (the only time they ever united in a political or national way). You also ignore the fact that the Slovaks almost completely assimmilated the Ruthenian culture whereas it has been preserved in Ukraine as part of the larger 'Umbrella Ruthenian group'. Sorry, Tim, you are not tired, you just can't argue these facts in any way which can justify political Ruthenism.

O.K. - me too !

Remember to bring ALL of your "rutheniak" friends to the annual Lemko festival in Ellenville, New York. You can tell them you are a Ruthenian and they will love you. Lemko 'Vatras' mean a lot to the these peoples who were sadly displaced. Go and meat the people and see for yourself what they are all about.

Here is an English language article which appeared in a Slovak newspaper which outlines the situation in Slovakia quite well. It DOES NOT discuss what I think is the main problem: Where did all the Ruthenians in Slovakia dissapear to since WW2 ?

Slovak Spectator Newspaper - Compares Ukrainian - Ruthenian identities [slovakspectator.sk]


Hritzko