www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Pope kissing the Quran!?

Dear Anastasios,
The Bible does call those who deny Christ as antichrist. Muslims and Nazis are not exempt. What is it that you respect about their beliefs? Their denials of Christ as God Incarnate? They wish to never answer truthfully the question that Christ posed to His Apostles: "Who do they say I AM?" Take it from me, an Arab Christian, there are probably thousands of underground Muslims from around the world, that believe in Christ as God Incarnate but they can never come forward lest they be persecuted & executed as well as with their families. My best friend whom I love dearly is a non-practicing Muslim, and many of my acquaintances are practicing Muslims who have nothing in their mind but to convert me. Oh, they are great conversationalists like Jehovah Witnesses when you open up the subject of religion. Also, many Muslims are also secular in their religious outlook and one could label them cafeteria Muslims---they chose to practice when they feel they want to or when pressured into it. Many would rather have a glass of Miller Lite beer and avoid eating pork rather than going to prayer. It's about the equavalent of Christians world-wide. However, this was not the topic I wished to discuss. The responses you had given to SinnerJohn are very weak and is a reflective attitude of Western/simple-minded American outlook. Islam was founded upon race,an Arab people, that was originally intended for Arab people in the Arabic language. This is not anywhere equavalent of Orthodoxy. The developmental history of Islam is full of racial wars and contributed to discrimination against Christians and Jews. European Christianity is no different under the guise of the Crusaders and the racial wars that ravaged most of Europe's history. It is unfortunate that Orthodoxy in general had eventually become rejected in Europe and in the Middle East. The presence of Orthodoxy in any land or continent becomes over time rejected and persecuted. Don't you dare state that Islam is a religion of peace. It becomes a religion of peace when you have surrendered and submitted yourself to Islam. It is not only a religion that promotes peace via submission but also through violence(jihad), the sword. This is not polemical it is the reality. Wake up you so-called Christians and stop pampering Islam through kisses and hugs of the Quran.
Do yourself a favor: go learn the Arabic language. Once you have mastered it, pretend that you are a Muslim and mingle freely in their mosques and with their so-called scholars as I have done. Don't say I didn't tell you so. I have been mistaken for a Muslim many times and heard the evils they speak of both Christians and Jews. I remember back when I was beginning college and heard Arab Muslims telling me how evil my faith was. I was a total ignoramious then about my "ambigious " faith and about theirs. Do you know what the sad and the worst thing about Islam is? There really is no hiearchal authority to prevent their lies and misconceptions about Christ or to prevent them from sporadic outbreaks of violence. Their lies keep multipling daily as well as their interpretations of what Islam is. Welcome to the world of gnostic interpretation found inherent in Islam. It is fueled by the millions of types of interpretations of the Quran and the Hadiths(their so-called Apostolic Traditions). I hope you take what I have said with a grain of salt. Do not be mislead about Islam. Try living in their midst where they are the majority whether here in the U.S. or overseas.

inawwe,
It seems you cannot accept critical criticism about the Pope. Perhaps, you are under the sway of Papal Infallibility. I can understand your defensive posture and your phronema. Veneration of the Quran is inexcusable and I would like someone who has thorough knowledge to speak up and inform me of what is true and what is not true. One does get tired by not getting a direct response which only reflect excuses. Some have honestly stated that the Pope's action was a mistake. If it is not a mistake then please explain to me why it is not. The kiss of the Quran is an immediate reminder of the kiss of Judas. I cannot help but see it this way. One's beliefs must be consistent with one's actions. Unfortunately, the Pope does not fit the picture. Everyone makes mistakes and sins, knowingly and unknowingly. However, is it so bad that you cannot admit that the Pope's act of veneration is out of line? Why couldn't the Pope have held the Quran by his side rather than bring it to his lips? May God forgive him and have mercy upon him.

Administrator,

I originally wrote: "One of my many enemies, and one of the Lords many enemies are Muslims. The bible calls them 'antichrists'"

Arthur responded: "how can the Bible call someone an AntiChrist when they as of yet did not exist?"

Then I wrote the passages of (I John 2:22-23) that showed how.

I will leave you to rethink your "beam" statement on your own.

>>Some have honestly stated that the Pope's action was a mistake. If it is not a mistake then please explain to me why it is not.<<

I believe that my previous post, as well as Dr. John's explained how the pope's action in kissing the Quran should be interpreted as a gesture of respect and not one of veneration. Since you have the opinion that it was a mistake, I would think that you are the one who needs to provide evidence that the Moslems saw this gesture as a rejection of Christ in favor of the teachings of Islam. In cases like this there will be no absolute right and wrong about the pope's gesture and each is entitled to his or her opinion on the matter. To insist that this gesture is a rejection of Christ (as Sinner John does) is utter foolishness, a false accusation and a distortion of Orthodoxy. But to hold the opinion that the gesture was a mistake and came too close to how we venerate the Gospel Book is an acceptable opinion. Even if the Holy Father someday rethought his action and decided it was mistaken (a view I do not necessarily embrace) what action should he take?

Dear Robert,

Peace to you, my brother in Christ!

I did not write to cause a disturbance to the peace caused by the Presence of the Spirit in your spirit and mine.

It seems that something in my response caused you to become upset. Let me summarize what I said; make a comment or two; and then ask a question.

In my post, I:
1. Responded to your
question,"What would Jesus Do?
2. Noted the value of your service;
3. Noted that your accompanying
comments could cause others to not
be receptive to your message;
4. Noted that the approval of Dominus
Jesus by John Paul II seemed to
indicate that he is opposed to
relativism, which is also your
position I think;
5. Tried, gently I thought, to
ascertain if there is present
anti-Roman Catholic messages in
what you said and state that, if
there were, they were heard
(By the way, were there?); and
6. Suggested that you (and also
meaning me) and move on with our
pilgramage in prayer for eachother.

What did I do to cause what I perceive such a negative response from you?

I am not able to discern from my response where I indicated an inability to accept criticism of the Pope. I don't think that I
gave any indication of my phronema, although it is not important if I did.

Robert, I do not understand how my comments in response to you merit your assumption that you know: my phronema; my willingness to tolerate criticism of anyone;
and my knowlege of the demands of the Faith.

I would like to continue to our conversation in a spirit of Christian Love. I responded to your comments without attacking you and what you hold dear; and I would like to have you do the same.

I really do not want to disturb the Spirit's work of peacebuilding in you. This does not mean that we cannot disagree or do so in strong terms. It does mean that if our discussion is to continue, I can do so only if the tone and words of our messages reflect the Love for each other that we are all commanded to share with eachother. I hope that my post did so; if it did not, please accept my apology and tell me how I failed in a spirit of fraternal correction. I will work mightily to remove the beam from my eye (there are several there and it may take me some time, however).

I hope that I have not overstated my position. I eagerly await learning from you in your posts.

PS Please forgive any errors that impede the message.

"I believe that my previous post, as well as Dr. John's explained how the pope's action in kissing the Quran should be interpreted as a gesture of respect and not one of veneration."

But moose, the pope has never made a statement that his kiss was only a "gesture of respect". He simply kissed it with no statement or explanation.

I beleive the pope would have done well to first consider what catholics all over the world would think of his strange action, and if they would be scandalized(i was). Then he should have considered all the holy martyrs that have been killed because of that book. The pope should have thought of the bad example he gives to the common person who not knowing any better now thinks that islam is a valid religion as a result of "the kiss".
The pope should have thought of our Lord and how that terrible book says that Jesus Christ is Not the Son of God.

Whatever the pope may have had in mind does not matter beacuse we are not mind readers the only thing we saw the was the pope kissing an anti-gospel.

Robert,
Salaam aleikum!
There is Byzantine Orthodoxy and there is Byzantine Catholicism. Orthodoxy ( I'm telling you?) is liturgically and symbolically more conservative/traditional than Catholicism. I don't believe Catholics can see the issue from the Orthodox perspective. Besides, can you really expect Catholics to criticize the Pope. That is our duty!

However, you are right on tarket about Muslims. I have had (for an American Christian) an unusual degree of contact with them and there is a true underlying contempt for Christianity and even an triumphalistic attitude within the souls of many of the Muslims I have personally known. But, I would be intrigued to know what it is like to live as an Arab Christian in an predominantly Muslim Arab society. Could you maybe tell us what it is like? ( BTW: I live just a few miles from an Egyptian Coptic parish and these Epyptian Christians are literally refugees---from a country that was Coptic and Christian long before the Muslim onslaught. The parish is full of MD's. Egypt's loss is Florida's gain. No "hanging chads" in this group!)
Irenee Pasee!

Dear Robert,

In your last post you asked me to explain how the Pope's action could not be a mistake. I tried to suggest one way in which one could interpret the Pope's action as not inappropriate.

I cannot explain how the Pope's action could not be a mistake. I mean no disrespect here, but the only way that the true meaning intended by the Pope can be ascertained is by asking him or by direct personal revelation by the Almighty. Ask those who can give you the answer you speak.

I hear your anguish about what you see as an act of homage to a non-Christian artifact. I am sorry that you feel such intense hatred for non-Christian religions.

In several of your posts I understood you to say that you cannot respect the faith of those who are not Christian. I hope that I'm not misinterpreting your statements. I understand you to say that you cannot do so because God has spoken to us in Jesus and continues to do so through His Church. You cannot be sure that He does so in any other way.

I'd like to share a few thoughts that might provoke an exchange of opinion. There are three major points to begin with. 1. God is in His Majesty Absoluty Free. He is bound by nothing. 2. Man's life is framed by what God wants him to be and to do. 3. Faith is a free gift of God to each of us mediated to us through His Word in the Churches.

That being said, ISTM that once we have been offered the gift of Faith and we accept, we must operate to the best of our ability to do so based upon the success of God's work in shaping us to His image. We are all Saints, but, we are not perfected. We are to use our freedom wisely.

God offers us Himself in His Chruches. We cannot look to other religions to find the wholeness of His work. God, on the other hand is not framed by what we want or think He should Be or Do. If I've interpreted what you've written, correcly, I think that Respecting the Dignity of God and the way that God has framed man, it is possible to discern a path within which it might be easier to give the Pope the benefit of Charity and to treat the beliefs of others with respect and even a degree of love in so far as there is something of God there.*

ISTM that it is possible that God has allowed us not to offer the gift of Faith in Christ to all of his creatures up to this point for reasons of His own. Perhaps we have not expended enough energy and do not have the resources to have done this to this point in time. Or He may have other reasons. We do believe that God's work in time is Mysterious.

Perhaps the God who in times past spoke to the forefathers, for example, is still speaking to those to whom the gift of Full Faith has not yet been offered. (We cannot know this for a theological fact.) If this is the case, cannot He, Who is not framed by us and who is free to do as He wishes, works history to the end of Building His Body in any way that He chooses.

Are we not to use what we know from what He has given to us as His Spirit frames us in the Church to try to read the world as His Icon also? Perhaps it is in this framework within which it is possible to catch sight of God's Mysterious Workings in our fellow humans. Should we not venerate Him working His will in Freedom?

It seems to me that not to try to catch a glimpse of Him if it is remotely possible that He is doing so in Islam and its followers is to miss the Spirit when He comes in the gentlest of breezes.


*This is not to deny or minimize the evil done in the past or present by followers of Islam, the Churches, Judaism,etc. Nor does it remove, however, the pain caused to other by this evil and the block to
toleration that results from it. It does move the discussion from evil to "What Is God Doing?"

Please excuse the errors. I hope that they do not impede the thought.

>>But moose, the pope has never made a statement that his kiss was only a "gesture of respect". He simply kissed it with no statement or explanation.<<

Since the Holy Father has not abandoned his throne and formally converted to Islam, I think that we ought to interpret his gesture as one of respect rather than one of veneration or apostasy.


>>I beleive the pope would have done well to first consider what catholics all over the world would think of his strange action,<<

We should not assume that his gesture was anything more than what it was. Since he has not left his throne and embraced Islam, it could only have been a gesture of respect. Before anyone here condemns the Holy Father for this action, they should write to the Vatican and ask for an explanation. I am amazed that people here are condemning others before knowing all the facts and seeking an explanation from the person they are condemning. It is quite possible that by this gesture of respect the Holy Father has been able to open a channel of communication in which we Christians may begin to present the truth of Jesus Christ to the Islamic people.

Should a common person like you or me who sees this gesture assume that Islam is a religion equal to Christianity? No. I assume that the pope's gesture is one of respect for the Islamic people. While Islam is a false religion those who embrace it are worthy of respect, as they are God's children, just like us. Unless one has additional evidence that the pope's intention was to embrace Islam, was a formal rejection of Christ or anything other than a gesture of respect one should not make accusations.

Robert wrote:

This picture of the Pope kissing the Quran does not fit in very well with Infallibility.

I think Robert has confused the Catholic doctrine of infallibility with the idea that popes are free from sin and cannot make mistakes. There is nothing wrong with a Catholic stating that they believe John Paul made a mistake in kissing the Koran. The Catholic doctrine of infallibility only refers to doctrinal formulations that are issued binding the mind of the Church. Popes can and do err. Whether or not he did so in this case Catholics are free to debate. What was in John Paul's mind was most likely these thoughts from this papal address:

"Seeds of Truth" Are Found in Other Religions
http://www.trincomm.org/research/retrieve.cfm?RecNum=535

Do we really think history is going to judge John Paul by this particular incident rather than by his overall writings and ministry...say, for example, the great stand he took in "The Gospel of Life"?:
http://listserv.american.edu/catholic/church/papal/jp.ii/jp2evanv.html

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Moose,
You need to stop playing word games with "a gesture of respect" and "veneration". You sound like a Latinized Byzantine Catholic. Are you saying that "a gesture of respect" and "veneration" do not mean the same and point to a hiearchal method of respect? The last time I looked in Webster's dictionary they were the same English meanings. Unless you have a different understanding of the English language I would like to hear from you. The Pope's gesture of kissing the Quran would have the Ecumenical Church Fathers "roll over in their graves". In conclusion, history has written that many past and former Patriarchs have abandoned their throne for embracing heresies. Some did recant,return and many remained excommunicated. I believe that the kissing of the Quran may not have warranted an abandoning of his throne or the denial of Christ but it does warrant an examination of his Apostolic values which is the focus of this topic. However, his throne is not of Orthodoxy and this is bad enough.

Vasili,
As an Arab Christian I have noticed the good, the bad and the ugly living in the midst of an Arab community as well as that of a corrupt Western culture. Islam has had such an impact on the lives of Arab Christians that many have adopted their world views. I have met some who think that they are scholars on Arab Christianity who say that Islam is the purest Christianity! I do not want to give anyone the misconception that all Arab Christians are like this. This is most likely the minority but the influence stems from that heretical book called the Quran. I cannot say everything in it is false because there are writings that were borrowed from Orthodoxy with much distortions. I can say that it is overall a book of heresy that was not composed and approved by the Orthodox Church.
What is ironic living in the midst of Muslims where Arab Christians are the majority, they begin to take on many Christian attributes and virtues.
The Quran has impacted the lives of Arab Christians and Jews. When I see a practicing Muslim what immediately comes to my mind is that of an Arian or Nestorian or Gnostic Christian. In the MIddle East, divorce rates are high amongst Arab Christians and that is due to the influence of Islamic divorces permitted by Islam. If one does not love his spouse one can divorce and find another one. Do you know who goofy and stupid they are: if a Muslim divorces his wife to the third degree and then changes his mind he cannot remarry her. She must get remarried to some other Muslim and have had sex with him. Then she can get divorced for whatever reason and remarry her originally husband. This is really oversimplifying things but this is the truth. The Muslim scholars tell us this is permissible since this should deter divorces in the first places! That is enough for now. I will later come back and reply to the other participants when time permits.

Christ is God! Worship Him!

Brother in Holy Orthodoxy, Robert!


I, in good and venerable Orthodox tradition, have actually read the Quran and two volumes of Hadith. Thank God I am not PC and have no fear of being criticized for being "narrow minded" because Islam is a bizarre and perverse religion, as well as the scourge of Orthodoxy. No matter how much non-Arab Catholics, Latin or Byzantine, try to ignore the truth, we will not be fooled. "Know your enemy" is the survivors creed, and we Orthodox are experts at survival.


I know that you and Khaled are experts on this issue and I defer to both of you as my instructors.


Pope John Paul committed a grievous error. It is a real shame he will not be able to apologize to Arab Catholics. I hope others who disagree with me will have the humility to read the following:


www.thetruereligion.org/priests.htm [thetruereligion.org]

Christian Priests and Missionaries who have converted to Islam.

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 12-29-2000).]

One interesting sidenote here that is often forgotten is that none other than St Gregory Palamas used to meet, discuss and debate with *Muslim* divines. Why? Because he never gave up on the possibility that through interaction and dialogue, those who are in error may become convinced of the truth.

It may be right that the gesture of kissing the Quran was a misjudgment because of the possibility that the meaning of the gesture could be misinterpreted (although, for the life of me, I don't think anyone could accuse Pope John Paul II of being an Islamic sympathizer). However, the underlying significance -- that of meeting, encountering, dialoguing with Muslims -- is a common thread that runs through the Christian East, at least, since the latter part of the first millenium. Noone should be afraid of dialogue of this type -- it is carried on by Eastern Christians in the Middle East all the time. Perhaps the Pope's gesture was capable of being misinterpreted, but in reality the folks in the Middle East Iincluding the Orthodox) don't seem to have been confused by it.

Brendan

"We should not assume that his gesture was anything more than what it was. "


I'm not assuming anything. I simply state what to me is obvious, the pope kissed an anti-gospel. Why did he do it? I don't know because he(the pope) has not said.

If the pope wanted to convey his respect for the muslim people he simply could have stated that fact. There was NO need to kiss a book that denies our Lord and Saviors Divinity. To kiss an object is to show respect and/or veneration to THAT object, like when we kiss the Holy Cross.

Did the pope confirm moslems in their error? It is possible. If i were to see a moslem take the Holy Gospels in his hand and reverently kiss them that would send a message to me that that man holds Christ and His church to be valid and worthy of respect. I'm speaking here of religion not people who profess the religion. I do Not judge the pope, only God may judge him. I do say that his choice to kiss an anti-gospel was imprudent at best.
To the catholic the pope represents Christ on earth, would Christ kiss a book that denies His Divinity, and leads souls away from Him? NO!

[This message has been edited by Khaled (edited 12-29-2000).]