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Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

I was viewing not long ago a picture of the Pope kissing the Quran. I would like to hear everyones response towards this act of veneration. I can understand the kissing of the Bible but not the Quran. It is true there are many great verses but there are verses that deny Christ's divinity, crucification, resurrection, the Second Person of the Trinity, the acceptance of Christotokos rather than Theotokos, etc. Was the kissing of the Quran a display of good will between Catholicism and Islam? Does anyone know of an Orthodox Patriarch of performing the same act? I wonder if the Sheik who presented the Quran to the Pope has ever kissed the Bible? What is everyones educated guess on this? Was the rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior as frequently mentioned in the Quran lingering inside the Pope's mind when he was kissing it? Or was the Pope selectively choosing verses that didn't focus on Christ but on God in general?
I know no one can honestly answer this but the Pope himself. I would like to know what is everyones or your church's interpretation of this act of veneration which we normally reserve for our Holy Writings which reaffirm the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

He made a mistake.

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

What is the line between respect for a different faith and adoption of that faith? If one goes into a Jewish temple for a bar mitzvah of a friend�s child does one refuse to wear a yarmulke because one is a Christian? Is placing a yarmulke on one�s head a one a matter of respect for the faith of a friend or a denial of one�s faith in Jesus Christ?

I do not know much about the culture of Islam, but can we assume the Moslems interpreted this gesture of respect as veneration, as denial of Christ in favor of the tenants of Islam, or as something other than what was intended?

I would think it is highly improper to assign any motive to the pope�s action other than that he was performing a gesture of respect. Gestures of respect are done out of respect, not because one expects the same respect in return.

When one presents the Gospel to another, does one do so in a spirit of condemnation toward the mistaken faith of the people one is speaking to or does one show some respect for who they are and where they are at and then plant seeds?

I have a Book of Mormon on my bookshelf given to me by missionaries who visited my house. If I had ripped it to shreds in the presence of the Mormon missionaries would that have opened their ears to the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Or was it better to show respect for them and their faith by politely either accepting it or refusing it? Now consider that they are not knocking on my door but that they have invited me into their temple to discuss things which we might hold common? Do I enter their temple and desecrate their holy book? Or do I show a sign of respect for them by respecting the things which they hold holy? And if I do show respect toward their holy book is it not for me the equivalent of admiring a picture of a spouse or loved one on my desk at work?

Moose is 100% on target with this perspective. As Christians, our lifestyle is to love God and to love our neighbors. If one is to show love to those not of the faith, one has to make sure that we use THEIR forms to demonstrate that we not only respect them, but also UNDERSTAND their way of thinking.

While those of us with ancestry from areas of former Mohammedan hegemony might arch an eyebrow at this gesture, it is certainly understandable that the most prominent Christian leader would want to make an overture to those who have been among the most active persecutors of Christians. It will certainly give them pause before they engage in another spate of persecution.

I'll forgive them their past transgressions; but I'm not going to turn my back to them without keeping an eye on where their gun hand is reaching. (I guess this is mostly oriented towards the T-people of Istanbul as opposed to the rest of the Moslems. Actually most Greeks get along quite well with the Arabs and other Moslems; it's just the T-people who make us nervous. The massacres of Smyrna are still within living memory.)

Blessings to John Paul II for his courage.

Moose,
I am not encouraging one to become a madman by attacking heretical or non-Orthodox Christian faiths. However, there are limits to such gestures. Do you venerate the Book of Mormons by giving it a kiss as you would for the Bible? Where are the standards and how far does one go to venerate books like the Book of Mormons and the Quran? The majority of believing Muslims would not dare to kiss the Bible since it is not the "original Bible". Muslims say that the Bible we have has some truth to it but is incomplete, corrupt, distorted and lacks the fullness that the Quran encompasses. In other words, the Bible we have does not deserve the kiss. I know this for a fact since I speak and understand their language and have lived amongst them. One does not show respect for anothers religion by kissing their sacred scriptures. I am not talking about wearing the skullcap of a Jew at some festivity or taking off my shoes when I enter a Mosque. These are etiquettes for entering into foreign territories. You have to abide by the rules of the house you enter. However, no one should force another to kiss a book or feel compelled to do so out of respect. This is nonsense. I wonder if the Pope presented the Muslim cleric with a copy of the Bible and gave it a kiss.

Dr. John,
True, we are to love our neighbors and enemies as well. However, this should not imply acceptance nor approval of their heretical thinking. The form of veneration of their sacred scriptures was borrowed from Orthodoxy. Islam is like an "evil fraternal twin" to Christianity. No believing Muslim would reciprocate a kiss upon the Bible. For a Muslim to do so would imply that they have apostated. No true believing Christian should dare to venerate non-Orthodox writings that are anti-Christian in essence. I am not advocating violence to such heresy or anger but I will not ever promote the veneration of heretical writings condemned by the early Ecumenical Councils. If you think it is fine and dandy to kiss a book which denies the divinity of Christ and refers to Christ's mother as Christotokos, you have that free option. I do know Satan is alive and well. But know that it is not Orthodoxy nor will it ever be accepted or compromised with Orthodoxy. The Ecumenical Councils have spoken once and for all. What do you think is the meaning of the Pope kissing the Quran? Respect? What kind of respect? Respect for the denial of God in Christ? Why does anyone have to play politically correct to a people who openly deny Christ His divinity and Sonship? Kissing the Quran goes to only reinforce their heresy, proving to themselves that they must be right about their religion. They love to entertain the thought that the rest of Christendom would convert one day to Islam. Their hype is already flourishing in the West. In my mind, I can never separate the thought of venerating the Bible in Christ from the faith in Christ. How is it thoughtfully done with the veneration of the Quran which explicitly denies the divinity of Christ and the divine Sonship?

Dr. John,

For the first time I think everyone answered truthfully.

Love, respect, honor --these are all different conditions which can and MUST exist independently. Respect is nothing less than esteem. It is the recognition of shared values and mutual concerns. You can respect someone without loving, or even liking, them and likewise you can love them without respecting them. How else could we carry out the Lords commandment to love not only our neighbor but indeed our enemies? How else could I love a neo-Nazi?

One of my many enemies, and one of the Lords many enemies are Muslims. The bible calls them "antichrists" and while I love them, I certainly do not have even a scrap of respect for their beliefs. And while I love Nazi's, I do not respect them and therefore will not kiss a symbolic representation of their beleifs --the swastika.

Should I have more respect for Islam because it has over a billion followers and neo-Nazi's only a few? Both sanction the use of force and murder. Both are prejudice and pray for the destruction of their earthly enemies. Both are militaristic and brutal.

But at least a Nazi does not nessesarily deny Jesus while the Muslims do, and the swastika is not a symbol which directly represents the denial of Jesus as Lord while the Qur'ran is exactly that. So how much more of an aversion should I have to kiss the Qur'ran? Now compound that with the fact that he is a so-called Christian leader who is not acting on behalf of personal beliefs, but of an entire religion?

Now what is the definition of victim?

You stated correctly Dr. John. The pope, like some "Orthodox" Patriarchs, does have respect for Muslims and Islam and has shown it many times. In fact, he follows the teachings of Vatican II. He is seeking peace on earth at the cost of truth like so many others. He is therefore willing to kiss the symbol of Jesus' denial, the symbol representing what St. John calls "antichrist". So who is the victim, is it the pope who performed the act, the apologist defenders, or the layman who now thinks highly of, what was once the embodiment of antichristianity, the Qur'ran?

For you to call yourself a Roman Catholic it is of extreme importance for you to be in "full communion" with your leader. To separate yourself from him is to separate yourself from the very criteria of authentic Roman Catholicism. In this way you are forever bound to hold this very fallible man and his failed church blameless.

[This message has been edited by SinnerJohn (edited 12-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by SinnerJohn (edited 12-27-2000).]

Dear Robert,

I am a new member of this list. I mean no disrespect, but I feel compelled to make a few comments and ask a question. Is it appropriate for one Christian to attribute evil intent to another without knowing why the other performed the act? I thought that the goodness or evil of an act is for God to decide. From what you have written, you appear to be have made a judgement without making a judgement that the Pope has done an evil thing that deserves condemnation.

Why would a Christian do this in the other's house? I am sincerely trying to understand your postings. Perhaps I have misunderstood what you have said.

It seems to me that the Quakers have an insight that might make sense here. When in a confrontation they try to recognize that which is of God in the other and wait til they can do so before make judgement, if I understand properly.

Could we not in Christian Love see the Pope as trying to recognize what is of God even in the Quran and in those who believe that it contains God's word? Surely God is not missing from the Quran and the people of Islam, for surely without Him nothing was created that was created.

Inawe,
Christ is Born!

Some of those who participate in these discussions, Orthodox and Catholic, have ethnic roots in nations and cultures that suffered terribly under the hegemony of the Muslim Turks.


For these Christians, the Quran is seen as the scripture of the oppressors and persecutors of their Christian ancestors. To ask them to accept the Pope's "sign of respect" for a religion that has often shown nothing but disrespect for our Lord, our Lady Theotokos, our Scriptures, and the Holy Catholic Churches of the East and West ( Don't forget the Islamic occupations of Spain and Sicily) is asking too much. Would you expect any Christian to respect Satan? This is how strong the feelings are of those who have either an historical or personal/intimate "experience" of Islam.

You make a good point of not judging others since it is truly hard to know the reality of human motivations. However, here you have an opportunity not to judge those of us who believe the Pope's gesture lacked wisdom and even common sense. Some of us have to live with the fact that we hate the cursed Turk, even though we realize this hatred contradicts the root of our faith, which is love and forgiveness. Still, we find the Pope's action highly and personally offensive.


For those of us who are trapped in this moral dilemma, your prayers would be very much appreciated.

Let us.......


Glorify Him!

Vasili,
Let us praise Him in Love forever!

Thank you for your gentle reminder of the hatred born of the pain of history and experience. The conflict between aspiration to good and attachment to evil is no stranger to any of us.

I empathize with your expression of the pain felt by many on this list whose ancestors or current family members who experienced or are experiencing persecution at the hand of persons who are not of the same religion. May such hatred in us all and such persecution be wiped out through His Strong Mercies.

I respond further with hesitation. I do so without wishing to appear to judge, but rather to point out a current hurt in progress to those of us who are in communion with the Pope.

It appears from my reading that there is a tapestry of hatred of the Roman Church and even of some "Orthodox" with whom the writers disagree expressed in some of the messages in this thread. We are all Christians here who are greater or lesser Icons of the Invisible if I am interpreting Eastern Spirituality correctly. We cannot remove history or its consequences. Is it not possible to express our hurt and anger and still try to see what God is writing in this action of the Pope and those other "Orthodox" Patriarchs without loading the discussion with barely disguised disdain?

Dear inawe,
The Pope who is the Patriarch of Rome and the West plays an important role model. I am sure you have heard of the expression "monkey see, monkey do." I will know Western Christianity has failed when I see every westerner kissing the Quran, the book of Mormons, Nietzsche's 'Requiem aeternam deo'(God is dead), and other anti-Christian writings. This is the heresy of relativism where the revelation of Christ equals the revelations of Mohammed and every free Gnostic thinker. Why shouldn't any Catholic not kiss the Quran since the Pope did? This picture of the Pope kissing the Quran does not fit in very well with Infallibility. This kissing contradicts the Christian faith. The only kissing should be of the Gospels. The Muslims know very well that they believe that Christianity is a faith superseded by Islam. Their gnostic thoughts of supremacy center on the sin of pride. I pray that I never see a Christian whether Orthodox or non-Orthodox kiss the Quran or any other heretical writings. I have never known an Orthodox Patriarch that has venerated the Quran as the Pope did.
I don't want you to misunderstand my position. I am not your God to cast judgement on the Pope's salvation. God did provide us Holy Tradition to discern between Orthodoxy and hersey. I have every right as member of the Body of Christ to speak and warn everyone of the evils out their being promoted. Give a heretic(s) the chance to come into your family's life and permit them to continually pound away with their heresy they will have made some impact on someone and will be telling you what to believe in. The history of the Middle East is prime example. I believe my judgment is sound and within the bounds of Apostolic Tradition. No one can possible tell me that I am wrong for speaking out against an injustice. Maybe you are one of those people who would tell me to shut my mouth in the face of wrongdoings, crimes and sins. Please ponder on these four words: what would Jesus do (WWJD)? Would Christ venerate a book or teachings that would deny His Incarnation, Crucification, Death, Burial, Resurrection, calling His Mother by the title Christotokos rather than Theotokos, never explain the meaning & roots of His Name in the Arabic language, accuse the Apostles & Church Fathers of distorting His mission on earth, etc? Look at the whole picture portrait of the Quran and that of the Bible and tell me which one came first, demonstrate the similiarities as well as differences, and how these differences can ever be reconciled within the Christian faith. It is sad & annoying to hear Western Christians who have fallen for relativism by stating "we all believe in the same One God" when they lack any true learning of the substance of the Christian faith. They are the watered-down Christians of no substantiated faith. To ponder the possibility that God Incarnate in Christ Jesus, the Second Person in the Trinity could not be a true reality is enough for me to take the dust of my feet, continue my journey of the Good News, and leave the final judgement to God.

"And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet (Mat 10:14)."

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who brought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber(2Peter 2:1-3)."

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, WHICH YOU HAVE HEARD WAS COMING, AND IS NOW IN THE WORLD. You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. BY THIS WE KNOW THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR(1 John 4:1-6)."

>>>One of my many enemies, and one of the Lords many enemies are Muslims. The bible calls them "antichrists"


response: how can the Bible call someone an AntiChrist when they as of yet did not exist?


>>>and while I love them, I certainly do not have even a scrap of respect for their beliefs.

Response: Why not? They have respect for your beliefs. 90% of Muslims are just like the 90% of Christians that are not fanatical. There are wackos on all sides. Many many many of my friends are truly faithful, loving, God-fearing Muslims. You might like to meet some sometime and you will see that you have disengenously attacked people. Most Muslims I know are Indian, so I will submit that perhaps I do not have full information concerning them, but some equate the fanatical Arab Muslim type as the same as Indians, Indonesians, and African Muslims. They are VASTLY different. When I was in India, people asked me if I was a Muslim becuase I wear my chotki. I explained I was a Christian and EVERY TIME they responded, "how great it is that you are a Christian! You worship Allah!"

>>>And while I love Nazi's, I do not respect them and therefore will not kiss a symbolic representation of their beleifs --the swastika.

Response: I would not kiss a copy of the Koran, either. But equating Muslims--who are born into their faith in culture--with Nazis who choose to be racists--is disturbing to me.

>>>Should I have more respect for Islam because it has over a billion followers and neo-Nazi's only a few? Both sanction the use of force and murder.

Response: Please cite verses from the Koran. So far you seem to be repeating the same old prejudices. Islam is a peaceful religion. The Crusades didn't mean that Christianity was war-like, so why do you make the same generalization?

>>>Both are prejudice and pray for the destruction of their earthly enemies. Both are militaristic and brutal.

Response: Lord have mercy! Where do you people come from?! Do YOU know any REAL Muslims?! Have you ever gone to namaz to watch Muslims pray?! Sheesh!

>>>But at least a Nazi does not nessesarily deny Jesus while the Muslims do,

Response: Muslims believe that 'Isa will judge mankind on the final day, that he was perfect, that he was born of a virgin, that he was the most favored prophet (ABOVE Muhammad in honor).... Muslims unfortunately are wrong about his divinity--but they do not deny him! They affirm what they honestly and sincerely think to be the truth about Jesus! Our job is to fill them in better not attack them!

>>>but of an entire religion?

Response: I wish you knew Muslims and had been in a place where Muslims are the majority... You would see...

SinnerJohn, I am praying for you.

anastasios

Robert,

Jesus did this: He bent down and wrote in the dirt and when the persons who decided not to cast stones at the woman left without doing so, he said that he would not condemn her either. The Bible does not give evidence of his seeking out other evidence of her sinfulness.

ISTM that You provide a service when you remind others of the dangers of relativism. It seems to me to be a leap to accuse the Pope who approved Dominus Jesus of that error. I certainly respect your right to state that point of view, though.

However, I'm not sure that equating the actions of the Pope as worship or veneration of evil incarnate, as you appear to do, serves your interest in alerting fellow Christians to the danger you perceive. At least, I assume that you are alerting those who are not Orthodox of the danger by posting on a forum which is used very often by Catholics. Rest assured that Dominus Jesus was to the point.

However, if your point is that Catholics are heretics and schismatics, I have heard your point. I don't agree, but you have made your point. I don't think that finding more examples of our perfidity will help much.

Move on in your pilgramage and pray for us as we do for you. I'd be most happy to learn where God's love is leading you.

Arthur,

"how can the Bible call someone an AntiChrist when they as of yet did not exist? "

"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (I John 2:22-23)

Which one of us who loves God in all his mercy and forgiveness is willing to kiss him on the cheek in betrayal? These are the lost sheep who have become so complacent as to not even read the scriptures he has delivered to us with His blood. To them he may be there, but we certanley don't know that for sure, but today we have before us an "honorable" people who's religion we should respect and hold with esteem.

And you say: "They have respect for your beliefs." Even though this is not true, do I care? I don't respect theirs as my faith is far superior and has condemned theirs, and is in FACT, the only REAL religion. Having said that of course we try to convert them in charity but NEVER accept their faith as respectable or acknowledge it as even legitimate or worthy, especially outwardly.

And you portray Muslims as peaceful people and ask: "please cite verses from the Koran. So far you seem to be repeating the same old prejudices. Islam is a peaceful religion. The Crusades didn't mean that Christianity was war-like, so why do you make the same generalization? " You are correct, the crusades did not mean Christainity was war-like, only papal catholicism was viscious and war-like. But this does not relate even in the least with Islam, where terror and war is not only taught, it is encouraged.

Ignoring that just 5 days ago Christians in the Maluku islands were forced to convert to Islam, with nine people killed for refusing, we can talk about the more than 3,000 people who have been killed last January in the Moluccas islands. Muslim leaders there have called for jihad (holy war). Or how about the Roman Catholic boy in southern Sudan who was playing in the trees with his friends when Soldiers waging a holy war capture him and send him into slavery, where he is given an Islamic name and beaten with sticks by his master's wives. Or the Presbyterian pastor who overlooks threats and builds the first "Christian" church in his region of Pakistan. A mob destroys the church. Masked men invade the pastor's home and stab him to death. Or how about the man who left Islam to become a Christian. Egyptian secret police arrest him without a formal charge and torture him with an electric probe to make him inform them about other converts.

But are these just acts of "wackos". Wackos who are not in line with their official teachings?

"The Messenger of All used to attack the enemy when it was dawn. -He would listen to the Azan; so if he heard an Azan, he stopped" (Salat, 745).

"The greatest contribution made by the Holy Prophet in the sphere of warfare is that he elevated it from the surface of reckless murder or slaughter to the level of humanized struggle for the uprooting of evil in society. The Holy Prophet, therefore, did not allow his Companions to take the enemy unawares under the cover of darkness of night" (Salat, 600).

And "Allah" allows Muhammed terror and war booty. While giving his opinion of the first mosques, Muhammad makes some interesting disclosures. He does not deny that the Jews the Christians also had their prophets but adds: "I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have helped by terror (in the hearts of the enemies); spoils have been made lawful to me . . . .; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me" (Salat, 1062). The whole earth is also made a "mosque" for him and given to him as a legitimate place of prayer for him and his (Salat, 1058). This is the idea of the world as a "mandated territory" bestowed on the believers by Allah. "I have been helped by terror. . . .and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth," says Muhammad. This wealth the followers of the "Apostle" "are now busy in getting them," adds Abu Huraira, the narrator of this hadis (Salat, 1063).

And you say: "they responded, 'how great it is that you are a Christian! You worship Allah!' " And I wonder, Do you?

I ask you: "Where do you people come from?! Do YOU know any REAL Muslims?! Have you ever gone to" Afganastan or Pakastan where the women are routinly murdered in the name of Islam and according to Islamic law?

And you think Muslims don't deny Jesus? You think they believe His teaching. NO. They teach Christians completely re-wrote the bible to suit their needs and they teach exactly this about Jesus...

'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and it behooves not the All-merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-merciful as a servant. (Surah 19:88-93)

The Qur'an addresses the Christians in the following verses in the chapter entitled "Women".
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three'. Refrain. better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, God suffices for a guardian.
They say, �God taken to Him a son.' Glory be to Him. He is all-sufficient; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; you have no authority for this. Do you say concerning God what you do not know? (Surah 10:68)

The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to attack the enemy when it was dawn. He would listen to the Adhan; so if he heard an Adhan, he stopped, otherwise made an attack. Once on hearing a man say: Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest, the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) remarked: He is following al-Fitrah (al-Islam). Then hearing him say: I testify that there is no god but Allah, there is no god but Allah, the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: You have come out of Fire (of Hell). They looked at him and found that he was a goat-herd. (Kitab Al-Salat, Book 4, Number 0745)

"Our prayer in the past was made to Jesus, the last prophet God sent to the Jews, according to the way we were taught. It is wrong to take Jesus or any prophet of God as His equal. We may pray to God in the names of the prophets, but not pray directly to the prophet. The Sender (God) is greater than the sent." (MUSLIM PRAYER SERVICE AND ITS MEANINGS, Chapter 65)

"Why are you praying to a dead prophet who, the infidel teachers claim, is now alive in heaven, sitting on the right side of His Father, who is called a spirit, yet the Son is not for He has flesh and bones. And this flesh of the Son, wounded 2,000 years ago, does not heal nor does it decay, according to the Christians' religion? This is the greatest falsehood ever told, or the greatest mistake ever made. Such doctrine cannot be proved true." (MUSLIM PRAYER SERVICE AND ITS MEANINGS, Chapter 65)

In conclusion, I will pray that you return to Christianity.

SinnerJohn

>"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ.<

It is pretty arrogant for anyone to accuse Pope John Paul II of denying Jesus Christ. Unless one knows directly from the lips of the Holy Father that his intent was to deny Jesus Christ and embrace Isalm than one should not make false accusations.

This thread appears to be discussing the appropriateness of the pope's gesture of respect towards the Quran. So far, only Sinner John, who has no standing as a spokesman for Orthodoxy, is the only one to openly accuse the pope of apostasy for this gesture. I would politely suggest to Sinner John to speak with his confessor about removing the beam in his own eye before condemning things he knows nothing about.

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