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Christ is God! Worship Him!

Brenden,

If you assert that dialogue between Orthodox and Muslims in the Middle East is quite common, I will not question your veracity.


However, that assertion does not apply to other parts of the "Christian East," including Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Macedonia, etc. Orthodoxy teaches that Islam is a heresy and Mohammed is an heretic.
It is hard to dialogue with heretics!

Brendan,

Thanks for your comments. As usual you present a balanced viewpoint. I did click on the site mentioned by Vasili and was quite saddened to read those Islamic testimonies. As for myself, I can understand where John Paul was coming from (being the first time a pope had visited an Islamic country) but I lean towards the view that kissing the Koran was a mistake.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Robert wrote:

>>You need to stop playing word games with "a gesture of respect" and "veneration".<<

Robert approaches this like a very black and white, legalistic Roman Catholic.

>> Are you saying that "a gesture of respect" and "veneration" do not mean the same and point to a hiearchal method of respect? The last time I looked in Webster's dictionary they were the same English meanings. Unless you have a different understanding of the English language I would like to hear from you.<<

ges�ture (jschr) n.

1.A motion of the limbs or body made to express or help express thought or to emphasize speech.
2.The act of moving the limbs or body as an expression of thought or emphasis.
3.An act or a remark made as a formality or as a sign of intention or attitude: sent flowers as a gesture of sympathy.


re�spect (r-spkt) n.

1.A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem.
2.The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
3.Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.
4.respects. Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects.


venerate (ven"er*ate), v

1. To regard with reverential respect; to honor with mingled respect and awe; to reverence; to revere; as, we venerate parents and elders.
2. To be in awe of; "Fear God as your father"

A gesture of veneration is much stronger than a gesture of respect. When we visit a funeral home to pay our respects to the deceased it is certainly sort of a veneration in that we honor God's creation. But this gesture is different from our veneration of the Gospel or of other holy things. I'm sure that many of the Church Fathers would have understood the pope's intention with this gesture of respect while others would have rejected it. I'm also sure many of those who would have objected would not take it seriously enough to "roll over in their graves."

>>I believe that the kissing of the Quran may not have warranted an abandoning of his throne or the denial of Christ but it does warrant an examination of his Apostolic values which is the focus of this topic.<<

This is a fair point. Perhaps one of the participants would take it upon himself to contact the Vatican Press office and put the question to them. Once there is an official explanation it would be fair to comment on it.


Vasili wrote:

>>Orthodoxy teaches that Islam is a heresy and Mohammed is an heretic.<<

Catholicism teaches the same thing. There is no evidence that Pope John Paul II is teaching anything different. As Brendan correctly pointed out, no one can accuse the pope of being an Islamic sympathizer. He is also correct in that the Christians in the Middle East have not voiced objection to this gesture of respect. It is difficult to dialogue with those who do not share our faith in Christ. It is also necessary.

Brother Moose,

I have lowered my antlers and I'm ready to charge!

Christians in the Middle East have not objected to the Pope's gesture? Well.... of course not!

Think for a moment! If you were an Armenian Catholic or Orthodox living in Iran, would you object? If you were a Chaldean Catholic living in Iraq, would you object? If you were a Lebanese Maronite merchant living in the Sudan, would you object? If you were a Melkite Greek Catholic living in the Bakaa Valley (Lebanon), would you object? If you were a Greek Orthodox living in Alexandria, would you object? Not if you wanted to live another day and/or preserve your property and business. (Anticipating your response: The same applies for hierarchs and priests.)

Please! What is more important? Winning a debate or accepting the truth?

Vasili,

>>I have lowered my antlers and I'm ready to charge! <<

My antlers are, sadly, covered with Christmas lights at the moment so I cannot charge back (or even wander too far from the power source).

I appreciate your point, but Christians in the Middle East can and would object if they felt it necessary to do so. To conclude that a non-objection can only be the result of fear rather than acceptance and to do so without proof is wrong. What other gestures of Pope John Paul II support your claim that his gesture was one of veneration, implying acceptance of Islam and rejection of Christ? Is it not possible that those in the Mid East saw this gesture as merely one of respect and not veneration? Why must you assume the worst until proven otherwise? BTW, just where is the outcry against the pope's gesture in the mainstream (and conservative) Catholic media? Can you site evidence that there are numerous Catholics who are objecting to the Holy Father's gesture and are demanding he issue a statement either rejecting Islam and re-embracing Christ or an apology for a mistaken gesture?

As I stated earlier, you are free to think that his gesture was a mistake but I respect his actions as appropriate for the situation. It may just have laid a foundation on which we can witness to the Moslems about our faith in Christ.


>>What is more important? Winning a debate or accepting the truth?<<

The truth, of course. You take your position in this debate without evidence of why the pope made this gesture. Without this evidence I think the only proper course of action is to either ask the pope to justify his behavior or to accept it for what it is. Why must the pope be considerd guilty unless proven innocent?

Moose,

Some of your bulbs aren't blinking. (Just kidding.)

I will have to disagree with you on the re-action of Middle Eastern Christians to the pope's gesture since you and I have contradictory anecdotal references. How can we doubt one another's personal experiences?
I do know that "my" Greeks are not happy with the gesture. They are my people now and I will "respect" their perceptions of this unfortunate event.

Since I am not a Catholic, I will mind my own business and let those of you who are debate this issue among yourselves.

I do want to say that those of us who are Orthodox need to recognize that Byzantine Catholics are much closer to there Latin brothers, in reference to "gestures" and the veneration of sacred objects, than they are to those of us who practice Holy Orthodoxy. That is why those of us who have a long personal experience of Orthodoxy, either as communicants, or through our spouses,etc., have a very different perception of the pope's gesture.

Peace to All! Chrona Pola!

Vasili,

My sources are both Melkite Catholics, Antiochian Orthodox and a Maronite Catholic, a ll with ties to the Mid East. When I asked the question most were more interested in why I was asking rather than about the issue itself. It appears to be something they are not concerned about.

I do agree with you about the futility of such a conversation unless we have definitive, documentable proof on the Holy Father's intention as well as that of those in the Mid-East and other Islamic strongholds who were outraged or disappointed at this gesture.

It is amazing how when Byzantine Catholics show elasticity regarding our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters we are being un-Orthodox but when we condemn or complain about them we are being Orthodox. Go figure!

Moose

I want to thank those of this list who have pointed out the persecution of Christians, past and present by those who do not share our faith. I have e-mailed my protest to the Indonesian Embassy in Washington and intend to do the same to the White House and Congress as well as the UN.

Does anyone know of a way an ordinary person can work to end such persecution? I join my prayers with yours on their behalf.

Thanks!

Robert S.,

The Pope also kisses the ground of each and every country he visits. Does this mean he accepts the anti-Christian policies of those countries' dictators and their thugs?

Joe Thur


[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 12-30-2000).]

Moose,

It isn't a matter of criticism, but a matter of recognizing the fact that both Latin Catholics and Byzantine Catholics are more occidental than the Orthodox.

Those of us who are Orthodox (and therefore, more oriental) should not expect Catholics to have the same oriental attitude about gestures and the veneration of sacred objects that we have. That would be unfair.

That is my point. Be yourself!
Happy New Year!

>> It isn't a matter of criticism, but a matter of recognizing the fact that both Latin Catholics and Byzantine Catholics are more occidental than the Orthodox. <<

Sorry, but that just doesn't mesh with the facts and really amounts to nothing more than name calling. Byzantine Catholics living in the West are certainly more westernized than those in the traditionally Eastern territories. But the Orthodox living in the West are just as westernized in their thought processes.

One's jurisdiction does not determine one's Eastern-ness. Byzantine Christians - Catholic and Orthodox - are primarily formed by their prayer life, both the public prayer in the liturgy of the Church and the private prayer alone in one's room. To reduce one's measure of Orthodoxy to mere gestures rather than what is written in one's heart is very sad indeed. I have never had the privilege of meeting the Holy Father in person. in my heart, however, I know that he is more Orthodox than you or I will ever be.

Thank you Mr. Moose. My sentiments indeed. Very well said. My compliments to you.

Wishing you and Rocky and Mr. Peabody a Happy New Year.

Christ is born ! Glorify Him !

Yosko Prokopchak
A sinner in much need of God's mercy

Moose,

I never reduced Orthodoxy to a matter of gestures.

>>Wishing you and Rocky and Mr. Peabody a Happy New Year.<<

Yosko,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I am still a bit angry at Rocky since he is the one who strung the Christmas lights on my antlers but I will pass on your greetings to him when I see him. I must remember that if I let him put lights in my antlers next year that they must be battery powered. Right now I can't wander more than 50 feet from a wall outlet and the slivavitch is out of reach. Sherman and Mr. Peabody have taken the way-back machine back to an earlier Christmas celebration where one's jurisdiction doesn't matter. Boris and Natasha are celebrating - Boris finally graduated from USC - the Ukrainian Safecracking College and they both have a flight tonight to Ft. Knox for some sort of New Year's bang.


>>I never reduced Orthodoxy to a matter of gestures.<<

Vasili,

Good! I'm sure that we can join together in a New Year's Prayer that all the peoples on earth will come to know Christ and follow Him.

Moose

Joe Thur,
Kissing the ground is not a problem since it is a true creation of God and a way of glorifying God on the earth. The Quran is a creation of the Devil. Believe it and weep it. I cant wait to hear about the kissing of the Kaaba and then we can call it a gesture of respect. Hey, why not kiss the Book of the Mormons or better yet the Book of the Dead! Why not kiss every book that contradicts the Christian faith so we don't look arrogant about our truths! Our truths are not really true because you have many paths to salvation just ask the Muslims and the Jews! Better yet, ask the Vatican about the numerous paths to God because Christ is not the only way they say. We certainly do not want to look as if we have the fullness of the truth because we might offend others about their "truths". So let's accept the play on words that Moose has continually employed to defend the Pope's gesture of respect. Besides who cares anymore. Believe whatever you want to believe because if the Gnostics are free to say what they want why cant we? Let every man, woman and let's not forget the children to freely kiss the Quran because it represents a gesture of respect(whatever that means). It can mean anything you want it to be and Jesus is but the Son of Mary who canot save you but Allah alone. Ain't this great theology! This is what they are probably teaching in the Catholic seminaries. I'm wondering where the closest one to me is so I can enroll and practice these gestures of respect. Instead of going to church tomorrow I will go and ask forgiveness of the Muslims at the mosque and kiss the Quran to reassure them I will not challenge their "truths".

"There is no god but Allah, and ******** is His Messenger"