www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Pope kissing the Quran!?

Hey Moose,

Are Boris and Natasha old calendar or new calendar? LOL.

Yosko

Robert,
I know your last post was a bit "cheeky",but i think your point is a good one. I can't help but think of the holy martyrs who chose death rather than bow to an idol. Again, i don't presume to know what was in the mind of the pope, but the act itself makes my heart sick.
Maybe i'm a bit emotional about this topic because my dad and indeed my whole family on my dads side are caught the the lie of mohammed contained in the quran. So, the thought of the cheif shepard of Christ kissing the book that is the cause of the damnation of countless souls( possibly my dads) turns my stomach.

I agree with Robert. It was not right for the Pope to kiss the Quran. Muslims even today are killing Christians in Sudan, Indonesia and other countries. The Copts still live in terror as do many other Christians in nations that were once the cradle of Apostolic Christianity. We must remember that Mohammed spread his religion by the sword. Mohammed and his first followers forced Islam on the Christians and Jews of the Middle East by violence. No respect need be shown to the Satanic verses. (Rushdie still lives in fear for just writing a book entitled just that)

Robert,

I have posted to you regarding your comments. I await hearing from you. Perhaps you will not respond when one truly wishes you peace.

In the meantime, I will keep an ear out for a Catholic Seminary that needs an instructor in Creative Use of Half-Truth Psuedo-Theological Polemics in the form of Diatribe 101. It appears that you may have invented a new form and certainly they would want to hear from you in their Apologetics department.

You've made your point or points over and over. In a spirit of Christian Love, can you not make some new points about something in your world or ours that demonstrates how God is working to the Good. The slack in negative flow and your attempt and ours to find What God Is Doing would do all of our souls good.

I suspect that God may be testing our committment to Love here. I can't see past the beam in my eye to see if there's one in yours? Is there?

Happy New Year, Brother in Christ. May you find peace from the demons you find in Islam.

Please do not allow errors in my written expression impede the thought.

Joy is the infallible (bad word, I guess, maybe certain is better in this situation) sign of the presence of God.

Dear Kaled,

I join you in prayer that the members of your family who have turned to Islam are given the help of The Spirit to swiftly return to the Way. I do not pretend to understand the pain that this and the persecution of our fellow Christians by followers of Islam present to you and others on the list. Evil behavior is Evil behavior and cannot be denied.

I think that many of us in this thread are trying to understand what the Pope did within our differing frameworks. Whether he should have done what is ascribed to him is not easy to ascertain as the discussion on this list indicates. I certainly respect your judgement about his action.

I hope that you can find a way to place your family, Christian and Moslem into the hands of God's Mercy. Although we change our ways in respect to him, through all forms of sin, lucky for us He is Immutable in His love for us.

Peace to you, my brother.

Salam Laka ya inawe,
This means in Arabic "peace to you". In regards to making my point over again and again and again, you will hear it again. Do you recall Christ and John The Baptist calling sinners to repent over and over and over? Did anyone understand the point they were making? Perhaps, our generation does not get the point. That is why the Pope did not know what he was doing or reflect upon the negative implications. Does Christian love blind and ignore the inherent heresies found in a book of lies? Would you be willing to kiss the Quran with the same kiss you give to the Bible? Do you think the spirit of Judas, the son of peridition, is in our midst? The Pope's kissing of the Quran, do you think Muslims would be willing to convert to Christianity or remain with the reinforced notion that their religion is superior to ours? Where do you think their strenght lies in our "corrupt" Bible according to Islam or in the greatest miracle, the Quran Al-Kareem? The Quran is the greatest miracle since these are divine revelations coming from an epileptic or possibly demon-possessed. Whatever the case, I will pray for the unity of the faith which cannot be found in the gesture of kissing the Quran. The true faith is but One Faith and not held captive in lies. Long live Orthodoxy.

In Christ,
Robert Sweiss

P.S. Have a Blessed New Year!

Robert,

By now you are aware that Orthodox who post here and do not follow the Catholic party line are "polemicists." You are also aware that Catholics who excoriate the Orthodox are "cool, calm, and reasoned" debaters. Right!

One thousand years ago, Greek and (probably) Latin Fathers of the Church recognized the fact that "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet," and took the appropriate actions to end this unequal relationship. I hope we can learn from their wisdom. Ecumenism between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is unequal in the extreme and these one-sided discussions are a foretaste of how we would be quickly censured if we dared to part from the Vatican line---- if we were in communion with Rome.


BTW JB: Since I believe you will read this post, I want to inform you that....Yes!....I have read Runciman...somewhere between '69 and '70. A long time ago. But, I have read writers such as Romanides and other Greek scholars and they believe the Sack of Constantinople so wounded the Empire that she never had a chance to recover....yes!...even though it took 200 yrs. before she succumbed to her wounds.

Dear Robert,

Thank you for your response which did not respond. In response to your questions,

Yes.

Yes.

No.

No.

No.

No.

Yes.

I'm not sure.

I join you in your prayer for the growth of Unity, Faith, and Truth (Orthodoxy) in Love made visible by the way we treat one another. I also pray for all of God's Chruches, those who are in communion with the servant of the Churches in Rome as well as those who do not share that communion at this time.

I truly do wish you peace.


Please do not let the errors in my written expression impede the thought.

Joy is the infallible sign of God's presence.

ANTHONY

Please don't forget the tens of thousands of Muslims who were butchered at the hands of Serbian Orthodox Christians in Bosnia-Hercegovina and in Kosovo! All this was done in the name of JESUS CHRIST!!!

What amazes me is why the Orthodox members post here on a CATHOLIC site???

Are you not sinning but even associating with us heretics????

the least servant of the servants of God
mark

Well of course, what took you so long to discern the truth? ;o) Seriously, I believe you'll find this attitude on both sides against the other. Arrogance and pride knows no boundaries...

It may be difficult, but it would hardly be in keeping with the Gospel if we refused to pick up that cross and walk with Him. Unity is commanded by our Lord, it is not an option or something we can dispense with for an "amicable" divorce. Whatever divides us can be resolved in time, with some serious head-knocking by the Spirit no doubt. Putting one's head in the sand and refusing to try because one is used to the status quo is not acceptable.


Let's be realistic here. Do you really think that Rome could silence the East if it so desired by some fiat handed down from the mighty throne of Peter? I think not. That approach has been tried over the past 1,000 years and has gotten nowhere. Nor will condescending treatment of Catholics as being "ignorant Latin barbarians" work. Been there, done that from both sides. True ecumenism is not harmful to either Church, as long as it remains an open and honest dialogue along with an airing of particular grievances and examing the differences between them.


Wise man. ;o) You may wish to read it again for it has been updated and one does tend to forget things over 30 years.


No doubt some do, yet that is mighty convenient and simplistic IMHO. While the sack certainly didn't help, Byzantine incompetence and corruption contributed more to their own downfall.

Pax Christi,
John

Dear Vasily,

I don't think that Orthodox are expected to follow the Vatican party line, if one exists.
Given the current situation, differences exist among the Churches and I think they are important and are being used by God to build His body in His own time. I don't think that all Orthodox posters to this thread are polemicists who engage in diatribes.

It is hard not to think it of those who make incorrect assumptions about Catholic belief, posit them as though they are true and then beat Catholics, Byzantine, Latin, Melkite, etc. on the basis of those statements in a negative format. I also find it hard not to think it of persons who show disrespect for the Pope.

I believe that it is improper in Orthodoxy, as it is in the Churches in communion with the Servant of the Churches who lives in Rome, to personally vilify your Hierarchs even when you don't like them or disagree with them. I have seen Orthodox who do not show this respect for a Hierarch who was identified as a Patriarch in the binding Ecumenical Councils. I have such seen disrespect on this thread and others. This ISTM violates Orthodox Canons or at least Orthodox practice and certainly violates the common sense rules of civility and hospitality in the context of this list.

In my opinion, to try to get people to treat others with respect is not mistreating them. I did not intend to excoriate anyone. Perhaps I do not understand this but I think that getting people to see God in eachother and to respect the other because of it is part of the Orthodox heart.

To make the point, I have offered to look for institutions needing instructors for Creative Uses of Half-Truth Theological Polemics in Diatribes 101.

I do this in a facetious attempt to lower the decibel level of shouting of incomplete truthes about my Faith. It is not coming from Catholics although, clearly, not all Catholics agree with or like the current Pope. He is, though, the Servant of the Churches in our view; a Patriarch in your view, I think.

I also do it because I hope that we can use language about our respective Churches, leaders, heritages, and customs that unbelievers who lurk on this list might be able to say that, "Even in their discussions about serious issues that divide them, you can tell they are Christians by their love for each other. There might be real power in this Christ."

If this means that you feel that Orthodox posters in general are perceived as polemicists, I am not putting that out here. If it's here in our discussion together, I leave it to you to figure out where it's coming from.

I am learning from both Robert and you as well as the others on the list. I appreciate your presence here. Please understand that I mean that.

Please, though, join me in asking that the verbal insults that are being used to make points stop. Can we not have a forum where it is safe to say what you believe or know
without being deluged in negative verbage in response?

I invite you to look for an Orthodox seminary which can use instructors in Creative Uses in Half-Truth Theological Polemics in Diatribes 101 for those who are not Orthodox on the list who do the above.

I will work very hard not to be one of those who apply for the position.

Peace and a Happy New Year.

Joy is the infallible sign of God's presence.

Medved or is it Mohammed?,
I am joking! LOL
Not to defend the Serbians but the heretical Muslims are equally to blame. The bombing of Serbian Churches and Monastaries by the militant U.N. and Muslims will live in Orthodox memeories. Too often people forget the crying call of the Patriarch Pavle. Perhaps, you should consult with the Patriarch of Serbia and ask him if the killings on both side were justified. The answer is NO. The Orthodox Church does not believe in the Latin doctrine of "Just War". It's true destiny is to suffer as it has from the time of Pentecost.
Also, I am glad that you are amused by me and fellow Orthodox members. Did it ever occur to you that we are but messengers who come here to give warnings and to heed our message of good tidings? I am beginning to sound like Muhammad writen about in the Quran. LOL! Make sure you kiss the Quran because as others have said it is a gesture of respect. Remember it is not veneration it is a gesture of respect. I wonder if the heretical Protestant groups are right in saying that a kiss of this nature is a sign of apostasy. I don't know, God knows best.
Finally, I don't worship with you and I would never until you accept the unity of the faith. That probably might never happen. The other Orthodox and I do not committ sin by e-dialoguing with you. It is our commission to preach to the four corners of the earth the Good News. The Good News I carry with me and I have brought to this forum is Christ is Born! Glorify Him! Not by the deadly kiss of the Quran but through the Holy Kiss of the Holy Bible. This is the Tree of Life and within it you are to partake of. The tree of Death can be found in the Quran and will put one's salvation to a permanent death.

May our Lord God Jesus Christ be with you all.

Christ is our True God and Savior!

Relative to the Serbian and Albanian Muslim civil war:

There were no innocent sides in this war, but there are many innocent victims. Long before the war turned into full-blown media war, the Kosovar Muslims had been terrorizing Serbian Christians: burning there farms; burning their schools, businesses, and even there churches and monasteries. Then the dirty work began in earnest: slitting throats, etc. Do you want a more graphic example of their butchery? None of us do! Sadly, the press ignored these facts. When the truly evil acts committed by Serbs on Muslims caught the eye of the media, they diligently reported these facts, but ignored the relevant CURRENT historical background.
In other words, they provided an unsuspecting American and international media audience with a very truncated and distorted view of the Serbian position. Any person with even a modicum of moral virtue would object to this hypocrisy.

Now, the same situation applies to Bosnia. However, that situation is more complex since we have an even larger field of players engaged in the lunacy of slaughtering one another: Catholic Croats, Orthodox Serbs, and Bosnian Muslims---all Slavs! There are no innocent sides, but many innocent victims.

Now! Back to Albania!

Many Greeks from Epirus, the homeland of my late wife (vicnaja pamjat!) are actually Orthodox Albanian refugees who, over the years, generations, and even centuries, have been Hellenized. But, the newer arrivals can tell horror stories of the persecution and slaughter of Christians by the Muslim Albanians who are killing Christians to this very day.(Under the Turkish hegemony, they were the "enforcers" for the various Turkish and Albanian Muslim pashas.) I know the details of these horror stories and I heard them from reliable sources: my late wife (vicnaja pamjat!) and my mother in law (vicnaya pamjat) who was a MUSLIM refugee from Albania and subsequently converted to Orthodoxy. We have three families in our Greek parish, who are Albanian Greeks, and they have confirmed the stories told to me by my late mother-in-law. These eyewitness accounts are priceless.

The point I am trying to make is: be careful of what you believe about the Kosovar and Bosnian civil wars. There is a great deal of historical background to the mutual bloodletting and to make the Serbs the sole evil players in this tragedy is woefully immoral.



[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 01-01-2001).]

I just have two thoughts; I really don't want to argue every point.

1) Most Muslims do not "reject" Christ. They don't know that Christ is God; they think and are taught that he is a Prophet. You cannot reject something you don't understand. They need to be informed, not condemned as infidels. I especially thought that the calling of Muslims "heretics" to be funny becuase someone cannot be a heretic unless he leaves the faith; the Orthodox Church refers to non-Orthodox as HETERODOX not heretics unless they personally left. Most Muslims would fall into that category.

I don't deny that Muslims need Christ, guys. My point is that most of you sound really ignorant babbling on about Muslims being vicious killers and apostates etc. Only Robert has probably ever talked at length with a Muslim (at least from the way you all post!) You need to realize that Muslims are just like anyone else--their faith does not incline them any more to violence than does Christianity, Hindusim, or Paganism.

2) The Orthodox Church doesn't believe in just war? Really? COme now, Robert, I really think you are trying to come up with new inventive ways that we are "different" with this one. Just war was developed centuries before the schism. In addition, the Byzantines and Russians had standing armies, no? I realize soldiers in the former could not receive communion while in active service, but we need to recognize that sometimes we must use force to support morality and justice. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches are in agreement here, unless you can show me otherwise.

anastasios

Anastasios,

The monks of the Holy Mountain have referred to Mohammed and Muslims as heretics for centuries. If you believe the holy monks are ignorant buffoons, then I pity you.

I don't believe those who have posted on this issue claim that non-Moslems are necessarily morally superior to Moslems. However, this fact doesn't change history and Islam's negative impact on Christianity. Please remember that the initial Islamic issue was centered on the Turks.


I believe most of us, who have posted on this issue, probably have had more contact with Muslims, over a longer period of time, than you have. But, there is much more to this issue than just anecdotal evidence.

You might be expecting some of us to adhere to a Catholic ecumenist position that, as Orthodox, we cannot possibly and with a clear conscience associate with. If that makes us foolish and ignorant-----so be it!