www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Pope kissing the Quran!?

Dear, in Christ,

This is an interesting thread. Pope John Paul II has a reputation (deserved, in my opinion) for carefully guarding the 'deposit' of the faith. He is a spokesman for orthodoxy in doctrine, and is not slow to criticize heretical teaching. Whatever kissing the Koran meant, it certainly did not mean that he himself was embracing the non-Catholic (or non-Orthodox) teaching in it. That would be out of character.

I suspect that one of the other themes of his Pontificate had motivated him. He has repeatedly called upon the peoples, cultures, and religions of the world to live in 'mutual respect'. This is a message that he repeated in his New Year's message at the Vatican only yesterday.

In the many places where Christians are suffering persecution and martyrdom (sometimes at the hands of Moslems), how can he ask that our Christian faith, our religion, and Christians themselves be respected, if he himself is not able to offer the example of respect for other religions? How can we ask for tolerance, acceptance, and respect, if we are not able to show due respect in return?

This is an age of great persecution of the Gospel, and many are suffering for their faith. The Holy Father's message, that in this new millennium we must learn to live together, and show respect for one another in visible and concrete ways, is a meditation on the Gospel message and command which is even more demanding "love one another" and "judge not".

The Holy Father teaches the truth without compromise. To accuse him of embracing error, or accepting other Scriptures as inspired or of divine inspiration, seems harsh and unfounded to me.

Rather, I am challenged by his example, and I think that his message of mutual respect, tolerance, understanding and love, is one that needs to be preached in this age! If we could only bring about in our world, something of this vision for a new millennium, then we would rejoice that Christ's own commandment was being followed, and the kingdom was being accomplished by grace.

By mutual respect, and greater love, one for another, the Gospel truth would be strengthened, and not compromised.

With prayers and best wishes for the feasts!

Elias, monk

I thought it might be benficial to illustrate a few snipets of Latin thought on this subject and conclude with a passage from the bible...

Pope Felix III said: "Not to oppose error, is to approve it, and not to defend truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them." (Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy, The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, p. 74.)

Pope Leo I said: "He that sees another in error, and endeavors not to correct it. testifies himself to he in error."(Daniel Sonrise, Institute for Informed Conscience, P.O. Box 872, Capitola, CA. 95010, p. 72)

St. Augustine said: "Medicinal rebuke must be applied to all who sin, lest they should either themselves perish, or be the ruin of others . . . Let no one, therefore, say that a man must not be rebuked when he deviates from the right way, or that his return and perseverance must only be asked from the Lord for him." (Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy, The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, p. 73.)

"St." Catherine of Siena said: "We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence." (Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy, The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, p. 247.)

In the beginning of this century, Pope "St." Pius X said in Pascendi that the danger from the adversaries of the Church were, "not from without but from within; hence the danger is present almost in the very veins and heart of the Church."

"St." Thomas Aquinas said: "Take note that if there were a danger to the Faith, subordinates would be bound to reprove their prelates, even publicly." Even the Dogmatic Councils of the Latin Church speak about true obedience to the Pope, not blind obedience, but blind obedience is the only thing that is fostered.


". . . there is good reason to fear lest this great perversity may be as it were, foretaste and perhaps the beginning of those evils which are reserved for the last days; and that there may be already in the world the 'Son of Perdition' of whom the Apostle speaks." (II Thess 2:3)

Gee, now why isn't this explanation above accepted from Orthodox when some of our merry band go traipsing to your boards to spread the Good News, eh? Hypocrisy apparently knows no bounds either...

Pax Christi,
John

Dear in Christ, John,

Of course, you are right, that error is to be corrected, and sin reproved.

Could it be wise, to choose carefully the time and place, where one's correction is likely to be heard for the salvation of the sinner?

The motive for proclaiming truth and correcting error, is always to help the other, save the one who is lost, correcting the one who is in error, curing the sickness of mind and heart, for the sake of their soul.

Reproving error, correcting the sinner, was never meant to be a triumphal or self-approving act. It is rather an act of compassion and mercy.

What John Paul stands for is clear, and he voluminously preaches and teaches and corrects the whole world. For those who are willing to read, the volumes fill a shelf. For those who are willing to listen, he preaches regularly in his city, and to the whole world. He is doing every week, what you rightly indicate he should do, preach, teach and correct.

John Paul's heartfelt respect for all people, his compassion even for sinners and those who break God's command to live in "love and unity" is a mark of his character, and I think, the fruit of his prayer. This gesture and example of respect to the Moslem world stands on its own merits, and I do not believe he can be criticized at one moment, for not doing what he ably, and completely does elsewhere. He has used judgement, and is trying to build an environment of love and respect, which is the context (if there is one), in which loving and compassionate correction might in fact be heard, for the benefit of the hearer.

Jesus himself corrected the the leaders of the people, not so much for their error (about this he was patient, and he was ready to be forgiving and compassionate). He had no patience for their self-righteousness, thinking themselves to be guardians of truth, all the while being lost.

Much is forgiven to those who love much. John Paul should be forgiven this, for (in my reading of his character) his motive was love for this people, and real compassion for them.

Elias, monk

Ever stop to consider how the rhetoric all of us spew against each other contributed to the butchery we witnessed in the Balkans during the 1990s? "God is on our side, so who can stand against us?" "Death the infidels and heretics, these vile enemies of God!" Multiply such sentiments by a few centuries and you have a recipe for mass slaughter.

Pax Christi,
John

[This message has been edited by John M. Betts (edited 01-01-2001).]

Amen.

Pax Christi,
John

Dear in Christ, John,

...and while your quotes from the Fathers, Popes and teachers of the Church are interesting and thoughtful, your list without comment or connection is difficult to read and place into context.

For your quote from II Thes. 2 can be variously understood given the current context.

If however you are equating any action by a Church Leader (the Bishop of Rome in particular) as a perversity, I hope you will consider a benign interpretation for this action which I have suggested in my posts. That is a harsh judgement.

If you are suggesting (as the context of the thread implies) that John Paul II he is the fulfillment of prophetic text, then you have crossed the bounds of courtesy and respect demanded by the rules of this Forum.

I draw the attention of the Adminstrator to this thread, for his judgement.

Elias, monk

Robert wrote:

>>It is our commission to preach to the four corners of the earth the Good News. The Good News I carry with me and I have brought to this forum is Christ is Born! Glorify Him!<<

The Byzantine Forum strongly agrees with Robert on our individual responsibility to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ to the entire world. Sadly, however, this spirit is not contained in many of his posts and those of others participating in this thread. We remind those participating in The Byzantine Forum that they have agreed to follow the basic rules of Christian Netiquette. In order for The Byzantine Forum to remain successful the intellectual and spiritual freedom given to participants must be tempered with the exercise of responsibility and a general refrain from personal attack. Always remember that what you write on this forum might be the only Gospel that some net surfers may ever see. Your posts, good or bad, will be the understanding of your Church that readers take away with them.

Since it appears that several participants in this thread will either misunderstand or pretend to misunderstand the above reminder here it is in detail, as it applies to this thread:

1. You may agree or disagree with the action of Pope John Paul II in kissing the Quran.

2. If you disagree with his action and claim that your disagreement is that of Catholicism or Orthodoxy (or of another jurisdiction, Christian denomination or non-Christian religion) the burden of proof rests upon you to provide documentation from the leaders and members of your Church. If you do not provide such documentation make sure that you make it clear that you speak for yourself and not for your Church.

3. Those who disagree with the actions of the Holy Father are free to do so but they are asked to do so in the spirit of the love of Christ and to refrain from the personal attack.

4. All who post should remember that on Judgment Day the Lord will expect you to stand before His throne, read each of your posts, and justify what you have written. If that is too much to consider then please consider taking a printed copy of this thread to your confessor and discuss with him the quality of your witness of Jesus Christ. If your post is not written in the spirit of love, if it is not documentable (and not just anecdotal) then don't post it.

The Administrator

Dear Monk Elias and Administrator,

Amen and thank you for your words. Common civility which is a form of love surely should guide us all in what we think, what we say and in how we say it.

I think that every poster here has something to share that is of value to every other poster. Sometimes it's not what we say but how we say it that causes pain to others.

Thank you for stressing the need for Charity here. Thank you also for the reminder about the guides for our conduct here that we all agreed to follow.

Again, Amen!

Please do not let the errors in written expression impede the meaning.

Joy is the infallible sign of the presence of God. Let us be joyful together.

Dear Administrator,
Thank you for reminding me of Christian Netiquette. I apologize for not showing a spirit of love. However, it was not my intent to downgrade anyone and I do need to better contol my passion for Orthodoxy in the spirit of love. I started this topic to see what is the response of Christians and their Churches to the kissing of the Quran by the Pope. I am still baffled and not convinced of the "gesture of respect". It is like the Pope being insensitive of the Jewish people's feelings regarding the Holocaust. I am curious to know if you think the kissing of the Quran was appropriate and I promise I will not harp on you or anyone else. Even though I have not asked my priest and bishops to comment on the kissing of the Quran, I am very confident that they will feel the same as I do. Yes, you are correct there is a Judgment Day and we all shall stand before the dreaded Judgment Seat of Christ. I have no problem printing a copy of this thread and showing this to my priest. Let it be known that the kissing of the Quran is not witnessing to Christ. This is the Good and Bad News for some of you. I mean no offense.

Anastasios,
I want to tell you in the spirit of love that you do not know what you have stated. The Muslims do reject God Incarnate Jesus Christ. The Muslims have the understanding of the Messiah based upon Nestorianism, Arianism, and Gnosticism. You do know that they speak of Him as only a prophet. They have been informed for centuries of what we believe but their Gnostic mindset will not phantom the Trinity. I personally will not condemn or judge their salvation because that sphere belongs to the One above. They can be saved and they are very stubborn, narrow minded people which I give them credit for unlike the Christians worldwide. They are heretics whether you agree or disagree. Many are born into heretical religions no fault of their own. You are mistaken to believe that the Orthodox Church has ever referred to them as heterodox. The teachings of Islam are a departure from the One True Faith. Therefore, heresy since our Ecumenical Councils have spoken strongly against the beliefs inherent in Islam and before the coming of Islam. All Muslims are heretics and they need our help. They need to know salvation can be found in Christ Jesus alone. The description of Christ in the Quran is not the same as that of the New & Old Testament. The Messiah of the Quran is not God Incarnate and the Quran has much to say about Jesus, the son of Mary (Christotokos).
You are correct to infer that violence has not been practiced by Muslims alone but also of those of other religions. Original Sin is here on earth and no human is immune. Islam is different than Christian theology in that it does promote "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth". It does not teach the love for one's enemies or to turn the other cheek. Islam does speak of forgiveness much like Judaism but it does not seek the heart of Christ in fullness.
In regards to Just War, the doctrine has been refined moreso in the West than in the East. Saint Augustine was a supporter even though the majority of the Church Fathers rejected it. It was this doctrine that led eventually to the Crusades. This doctrine is no different than the Muslim's doctrine of Jihad. The use of force is not the way of Orthodoxy. Maybe that is why the Orthodox Church has been helpless many times throughout Her history and has taken huge beatings. God have mery upon us.

Christ is Born!

Robert,

The holy fathers of Moni Vatopediou are now praying for you and your holy mission.
http://blacktower.medialab.ece.ntua.gr/athos/uk/mones/ref0123.htm


Glorify Him!



[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 01-01-2001).]

Monk Elias,

Going strictly by Latin standards, Popes have never been completly right or complety wrong, that is to say, they have not either been anti-popes or "good" popes. They have been one shade of every color in the spectrum like this thread points out. They error, some more than others -they are not perfect.

Error is a blinding sickness which crushes the weak and deflects the wise. It is the murderous persecutor and torment of honest God-loving souls who seek bread, but are only fed stones.

Which is why the discussion about truth is not useless babbling as so many think. Nor is it the display of hatred or triumphalistic banner waving. The dentist does not hate the person who's teeth he pulls nor does he smile when he roots out corrupted members so they don't infect the whole body. He does this boldly and without hesitation, and with one purpose in mind, physical health.

What I think plagues this thread is not so much what John Paul stands for (which could be discussed some other time), it is what each person here stands for -many seem to have an aversion for the dentist. There are a few who admit his error, but immediatley attempt to fence off the subject by recognizing his character, portraying Islam as a Christian-friendly faith, or drawing attention to "the Big Picture". And then there are those who will stand by the pope's action even if it were through the gates of hell. And all of this while the Latin faith allows disloyalty to the pope.

Please forgive me for saying this but who really beleives John Paul did not error. Is their truly even one person? On the one hand you said: "This gesture and example of respect to the Moslem world stands on its own merits, and I do not believe he can be criticized at one moment" and not two paragraphs later you say "John Paul should be forgiven this".

If even his defenders do not believe the defense, to what end is their struggle?

What God has given to us with his blood and terrible suffering is the most precious and dear gift in which all things on earth are measured. We seek Him through His truth. The world will pass but His words will not. So we censor those who error and we do not entertain hypocrasy.

This is how we know we are true Christians.

In Christ,

SinnerJohn



[This message has been edited by SinnerJohn (edited 01-01-2001).]

Monk Elias has eloquently provided us with the wisdom of the monastic perspective. I respect the private opinions of Robert, Vasili, Sinner John and others in this thread. I must, however, continue to disagree with them because they are formed upon personal emotion without knowing all the facts. I give the pope the benefit of the doubt (as I do for most individuals) because I do not know all the facts of the situation. To judge without knowing or caring to know all the facts is nothing more than false witness.


Robert wrote:

>>Even though I have not asked my priest and bishops to comment on the kissing of the Quran, I am very confident that they will feel the same as I do.<<

Never assume, Robert. I am not quite so confident about your claims and ask that you document them. The style of your posts indicates that you are still a babe in Orthodoxy. My hope and prayer for you is that you have regular spiritual direction to grow in Orthodoxy and that you evident hatred for your former Roman Catholicism will someday be replace with love. You may claim otherwise but your written words clearly speak your faith and it is not one of love.


Sinner John writes:

>>The dentist does not hate the person who's teeth he pulls nor does he smile when he roots out corrupted members so they don't infect the whole body. He does this boldly and without hesitation, and with one purpose in mind, physical health.<<

Praise God that the only dentist is Jesus Christ and not Sinner John. As I have stated in previous posts, Sinner John may belong to an Orthodox jurisdiction but is far from Orthodox and far from a credible spokesman for Orthodoxy. Even though he has been a convert to Orthodoxy for 30 or more years he is still at the stage where he understands Orthodoxy in terms of rejection of the West.

I truly understand the positions taken by some Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) in this forum. The greatest apostasy from Orthodoxy has been to Islam and huge numbers of those who refused to apostatize through the centuries were either persecuted or martyred. We must always, however, remember that we are to follow the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he said: "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not hate them. (Romans 12:14).


Yoshko,

>>Are Boris and Natasha old calendar or new calendar? LOL <<

Moose and squirrel are new calendar. Boris and Natasha celebrate twice (Boris wants as many gifts as is possible).

Moose,

If you have the stomach to re-read my posts, you will notice I never criticized the Pope as a person and I even mentioned that it is very difficult to really discern a persons intentions, etc.

My position is very clear and unambiguous
and is perfectly consistent with the position of the Monks of the Holy Mountain, who are my teachers in Orthodoxy: veneration of the Quran by Orthodox Christians is forbidden because it is an heretical document. ( My GOA pastor believes and practices the same. So does our local Antiochian priest.) If you notice, this applies to Orthodox Christians. What the Pope does, as long as it does not affect us, is none of our business since His Holiness is not one of us. Clearly, we are not judging His Holiness.

I do not like these spats, but the positive news is that they remind us of how different we are, even though we might look so much alike. From my point of view, this is healthy because it provides people with real and legitimate,but different, forms of Byzantine Christianity to choose from.

Good Health!

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 01-01-2001).]