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Freemason Eliph Levi said in 1862: "A day will come when the pope, inspired by the Holy Spirit will declare that all the excommunications are lifted and all the anathemas are retracted, when all the Christians will be united within the Church, when the Jews and Moslems will be blessed and called back to her . . . she will permit all sects to approach her by degrees and will embrace all mankind in the communion of her love and prayers. Then, Protestants will no longer exist. Against what will they be able to protest? The sovereign pontiff will then be truly king of the religious world, and he will do whatever he wishes with all the nations of the earth." - Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy, The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, p. 133.

"THE HEBREW AND ISLAMIC PEOPLES, AND CHRISTIANS... these three expressions of an identical monotheism, speak with the most authentic and ancient, and even the boldest and most confident voices. Why should it not be possible that the name of the same God, instead of engendering irreconcilable opposition, should lead rather to mutual respect, understanding and peaceful coexistence? Should the reference to the same God, the same Father, without prejudice to theological discussion, not lead us rather one day to discover what is so evident, yet so difficult - that we are all sons of the same Father, and that, therefore, we are all brothers?" - Pope Paul VI, La Croix, Aug. 11, 1970

On thursday, April 2, 1970, a great religious manifestation took place in Geneva. Within the framework of the Second Conference of the "Association of United Religions," the representatives of target religions were invited to gather in the Cathedral of Saint Peter. This "common prayer" was based on the following motivation: "The faithful of all these religions were invited to coexist in the cult of the same God"! Let us then see if this assertion is valid in the light of the Holy Scriptures.

In order better to explain the matter, we shall limit ourselves to the three religions that have historically followed each other in this order: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. These three religions lay claim, in fact, to a common origin: as worshippers of the God of Abraham. Thus it is a very widespread opinion that since we all lay claim to the posterity of Abraham (the Jews and Moslems according to the flesh and Christians spiritually), we all have as God the God of Abraham and all three of us worship (each in his own way, naturally) the same God! And, this same God constitutes in some fashion our point of unity and of "mutual understanding," and this invites us to a "fraternal relation," as the Grand Rabbi Dr. Safran emphasized, paraphrasing the Psalm: "Oh, how good it is to see brethren seated together..."

In this perspective it is evident that Jesus Christ, God and Man, the Son Co-eternal with the Father without beginning, His Incarnation, His Cross His Glorious Resurrection and His Second and Terrible Coming - become secondary details which cannot prevent us from "fraternizing" with those who consider Him as "a simple prophet" (according to the Koran) or as "the son of a prostitute" (according to certain Talmudic traditions)! Thus we would place Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammed on the same level. I do not know what Christian worthy of the name could admit this in his conscience.

One might say that in these three religions, passing over the past, one could agree that Jesus Christ is an extraordinary and exceptional being and that He was sent by God. But for us Christians, if Jesus Christ is not God, we cannot consider Him either as a "prophet " or as one sent by God, "but only as a great imposter without compare, having proclaimed Himself "Son of God," making Himself thus equal to God!" (St. Mark 14:61-62). According to this ecumenical solution on the supra-confessional level, the Trinitarian God of Christians would be the same thing as the monotheism of Judaism, of Islam, of the ancient heretic Sabellius, of the modern anti-Trinitarians, and of certain Illuminist sects. There would not be Three Persons in a Single Divinity, but a single Person, unchanging for some, or successively changing "masks" (Father-Son-Spirit) for others! And nonetheless one would pretend that this was the "same God"

Here some might naively propose: "Yet for the three religions there is a common point: all three confess God the Father! "But according to the Holy Orthodox Faith, this is an absurdity. We confess always: Glory to the Holy, Consubstantial, Life-giving and Indivisible Trinity." How could we separate the Father from the Son when Jesus Christ affirms I and the Father are One (St. John 10:30); and St. John the Apostle, Evangelist, and Theologian, the Apostle of Love, clearly affirms: Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father (St. John 2:23).

But even if all three of us call God Father: of whom is He really the Father? For the Jews and the Moslems He is the Father of men in the plane of creation; while of us Christians He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ by adoption (Eph. 1:4-5) in the plane of redemption. What resemblance is there, then, between the Divine Paternity in Christianity and in the other religions?

Others might say: "But all the same, Abraham worshipped the true God; and the Jews through Isaac and the Moslems through Hagar are the descendants of this true worshipper of God." Here one will have to make several things clear: Abraham worshipped God not at all in the form of the unipersonal monotheism of the others, but in the form of the Holy Trinity. We read in the Holy Scripture: And the Lord appeared unto him at the Oaks of Mamre... and he bowed himself toward the ground (Gen. 18:1-2). Under what form did Abraham worship God? Under the unipersonal form, or under the form of the Divine Tri-unity? We Orthodox Christians venerate this Old Testament manifestation of the Holy Trinity on the Day of Pentecost, when we adorn our churches with boughs representing the ancient oaks, and when we venerate in their midst the icon of the Three Angels, just as our father Abraham venerated it! Carnal descent from Abraham can be of no use to us if we are not regenerated by the waters of Baptism in the Faith of Abraham. And the Faith of Abraham was the Faith in Jesus Christ, as the Lord Himself has said: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it and was glad (St. John 8:56). Such also was the Faith of the Prophet-King David, who heard the heavenly Father speaking to His Consubstantial Son: The Lord said unto my Lord (Ps. 109:1; Acts 2:34). Such was the Faith of the Three Youths in the fiery furnace when they were saved by the Son of God (Dan. 3:25); and of the holy Prophet Daniel, who had the Vision of the two natures of Jesus Christ in the Mystery of the Incarnation when the Son of Man came to the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7:13). This is why the Lord, addressing the (biologically incontestable) posterity of Abraham, said: "If ye were the children of Abraham, ye would do the works of Abraham" (St. John 8:39), and these "works" are to believe on Him Whom God hath sent (St. John 6:29).

Who then are the posterity of Abraham? The sons of Isaac according to the flesh, or the sons of Hagar the Egyptian? Is Isaac or Ishmael the posterity of Abraham? What does the Holy Scripture teach by the mouth of the divine Apostle? Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed: which is Christ (Gal. 3:16). And if ye be Christ Is, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29). It is then in Jesus Christ that Abraham became a father of many nations (Gen. 17:5; Rom. 4:17). After such promises and such certainties, what meaning does carnal descent from Abraham have? According to Holy Scripture, Isaac is considered as the seed or posterity, but only as the image of Jesus Christ. As opposed to Ishmael (the son of Hagar; Gen. 16:1ff), Isaac was born in the miraculous "freedom" of a sterile mother, in old age and against the laws of nature, similar to our Saviour, Who was miraculously born of a Virgin. He climbed the hill of Moriah just as Jesus climbed Calvary, bearing on his shoulders the wood of sacrifice. An angel delivered Isaac from death, just as an angel rolled away the stone to show us that the tomb was empty, that the Risen One was no longer there. At the hour of prayer, Isaac met Rebecca in the plain and led her into the tent of his mother Sarah, just as Jesus shall meet His Church on the clouds in order to bring Her into the heavenly mansions, the New Jerusalem, the much-desired homeland.

No! We do not in the least have the same God that non-Christians have! The sine qua non for knowing the Father, is the Son: He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me (St. John 14:6,9). Our God is a God Incarnate, Whom we have seen with our eyes, and our hands have touched (1 John 1:1). The immaterial became material for our salvation, as St. John Damascene says, and He has revealed Himself in us. But when did He reveal Himself among the present-day Jews and Moslems, so that we might suppose that they know God? If they have a knowledge of God outside of Jesus Christ, then Christ was incarnate, died, and rose in vain!

No, they do not know the Father. They have conceptions about the Father; but every conception about God is an idol, because a conception is the product of our imagination, a creation of a god in our own image and likeness. For us Christians God is inconceivable, incomprehensible, indescribable, and immaterial, as St. Basil the Great says. For our salvation He became (to the extent that we are united to Him) conceived, described and material, by revelation in the Mystery of the Incarnation of His Son. To Him be the glory unto the ages of ages. Amen. And this is why St. Cyprian of Carthage affirms that he who does not have the Church for Mother, does not have God for Father!

May God preserve us from the Apostasy and from the coming of Antichrist, the preliminary signs of which are multiplying from day to day. May He preserve us from the great affliction which even the elect would not be able to bear without the Grace of Him Who will cut short these days. And may He preserve us in the "small flock," the "remainder according to the election of Grace," so that we like Abraham might rejoice at the Light of His Face, by the prayers of the Most Holy Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, of all the heavenly hosts, the cloud of witnesses, prophets, martyrs, hierarchs, evangelists, and confessors who have been faithful unto death, who have shed their blood for Christ, who have begotten us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the waters of Baptism. We are their sons - weak, sinful, and unworthy, to be sure; but we will not stretch forth our hands toward a strange god! Amen.

Father Basile Sakkas

Dear Vasili,
Thank you again for revealing St. Nicolas from your wife's homeland. I have been given many stories like this from the Serbian Church in Chicago. I will always keep him in my prayers as he is in my memory.
All this discussion of the kissing of the Quran and dealing with Muslims are complex . I live in their midst and many are good people. Whenever the discussions center on religion I have spent hours with them. First we discuss what we share in common and then they encourage me to convert those "sneaks"(LOL). Then the discussions about Christ and the Bible take up the most time. I tell them I would convert if they could tell me when, where, how and by whom corrupted the Bible and reveal to me the name of Muhammed in it. I explain to them Church history but it flies right over their heads and we are back again to the Quran. It may sound like a waste of time if one's intentions is to debate and score points. If there is one thing you can say to them and they begin to ponder on it you may have sowed some seeds for the harvest. They don't know what is the Holy Spirit of God but they will tell you Jesus is from the Spirit of God. Ask them if God is Spirit and they don't know how to answer. They will say God is Holy and they don't know if the Spirit is Holy! One must understand that many are well versed in argumentation and rhetorics and the art of evasion which are signs of Gnosticism. Ask them if God is so great can He not take on human flesh and still rule the universe? All I ask these people is to think about it rather than repeat the same rhetoric over and over.
I show them respect by not kissing the Quran and not by outright condeming the Quran like a madman. I tell them as it is about the evolution of the Quran and the borrowed teachings of the Judeo-Christian heritage. I tell them about the heretical Christian teachings that are inherent in Islam and tell them to seek for more accurate information on their own time. Overall, I interact with them on social and business occassions and do not harbor ill-feelings against one another. However, outside this group there are extremists that sometimes make my blood boil and ask the stupidist questions for example: "should we Muslims greet the kufar(infidels refers to Christians) on Christmas Day?" and this is written in an Arabic newspaper based in Chicago. The response from the ignoramaous Sheikh is "no". Thank God we have an active Arab Christian community in Chicago that has many times in the past corrected nonsense that has come from this community. My priest and a group of Arab Christians have on some occassions went to their Mosque to end and correct serious issues that have accumulated in lies that tried to scapegoat us for.
Going back to the Pope, I can only speculate that the Sheikh who handed the Quran did not expect the Pope to kiss it. I can guarantee that I would never kiss it because it sends out the wrong message. We are dealing with a people who freely interpret messages as they please that go support their religion as true. I do not believe for one moment that what I have stated in this forum is a mere opinion. I can understand the defenders in this forum of the Pope's intentions be they political or social to demonstrate good will towards the Islamic people. The kissing is unacceptable. Moose is right about one thing: I should ask the Pope and the Vatican officials since we cannot possibly read their minds. I have a question for Moose: would he venture to kiss he Quran or the Book of the Mormons that sits on his bookshelf since they may reveal imperfections or distortions about Christ? That is all for now. God bless.

Dear Father Basile,

I think you point out the danger in ecumenical prayer situations especially those which involve non-Christians. It is certainly possible for participants to fail to bring to the sessions the consciousness that in Jesus we have the knowledge of the Trinity of Persons in the One God and to fail to pray in that awareness. That would certainly be a problem and you provide a service by reminding us of the danger.

I'm not sure that that is what happens in ecumenical prayer or that this is what Pope Paul VI was referring to. There is an unjustifiable leap in logic between being told by someone that he or she is denying Christ or the Trinity and saying that others,in praying to the One God with others are denying Christ and the Trinity. There is no necessary connection between them. The only place where the connection is made is here in this thread in the view of the one outside the events who is bring the quotes out of context to us.

When Christians pray, we pray in the name of God who is by definition for us Triune. this is true simply because we have put on Christ in Baptism. It is so whether we invoke the name of Each Member of the Trinity individually each time we pray. Unless we are told by the Christian participants in ecumenical prayer that they to deny the Trinity by praying to the One God; should we not grant them the love and trust to believe that they pray as they should pray whenever they pray? He is, after all, the Triune God and listens to us whether or not we use a ritual formula. Why must we attribute evil where no evil is indicated by the stated by the participants?

Others on the list may remember the details of the incident I recall more clearly; if so feel free to correct me if I err. On at least one occasion religious leaders of Christian and non Christian bodies including the Pope and, I believe Orthodox representatives although I may be mistaken in that, gathered to pray together. Great care was taken to see to it that members of the different religions prayed separately. It was deemed necessary to do this to preserve integrity of the various religions involved, yet to allow them to pray together. I believe that this meeting took place in Asisi, Italy.

I am not sure what the quote from the "Destruction of the Christian Tradition" is doing in your posting. It seems to use a freemason's prophecy to predict that a Pope will call Jews and Moslems the body of Christ and share the Liturgy with them, if I read it correctly. Additionally, that Pope is presented as a kind of religious dictator who will be able to do as he pleases to lead the Churches into error. I hope that this is not what you intend.

I think that this is a strange arguement coming from someone who is an Orthodox, let alone a from a priest. If you intend us to believe that the prediction has any kind of validity, it seems to me that this is a violation of the "netiquette" that we all agree to follow in joining the forum. To assume the prophecy at the beginning of your posting is in any way a true reflection of the future is to subtly attribute malice and evil doing to a pope on a scale incomprehensible to Catholics. You do not have to accept belief of Catholics to show respect for the beliefs and sensitivities of Catholics.

Pope Paul VI and all the Popes, along with leaders in other Christian Churches, in living memory have been strenuous in finding ways to help us recognize that God is working with followers of religions other than Christianity. I think that they do this as a way of helping to build respect among all whom Christ came to save Christian and non Christian alike. It is difficult to see this as the beginning of a slide to common liturgical prayer that denies Jesus as God and denies the Triune God with a pope leading the slide. In fact it staggers the imagination to think that a fellow believer would suggest such events.

The Popes have also been most firm to be sure that their behaviour and that of Catholics not be such that they deny in anyway the uniqueness of orthodox faith and its practice.

As has been poined out in this forum, it would be uncharacteristic of a Pope to do otherwise. It would be most uncharitable to attribute, without proof, prayer, belief, statement or behavior to him that would indicate otherwise.

Since you seem to want us to believe otherwise, the burden of proof is with you.
I understand that you think that this is the case. A quote from a freemason, your reflections on Sacred Scripture as you interpret them, and snippets from reports about ecumenical events as you understand them simply don't cut it as a basis for anything you've said or assume about Pope Paul or other Christians involved in prayer with non Christians.

Until you can produce evidence in their speech or writing, that others can see or hear, that Paul VI or other pray-ers you are pointing out are relativists or worse or that they promote relativism or worse, you have not proven your case.

Your assumptions that other Christians who pray with non-Christians deny Jesus, equate Him with Mohammed, or ignore the Trinity are just assumptions made without the benefit of verifiable fact presented to support them.

In your thoughts about the Forefathers of the Old Testament, I think that you are attributing to them insights that the Books of the OT don't report them as having. Surely the Jewish people would remeber and report an awareness of God as Trinity if Abraham had reported this revelation to them, for example. It seems to me that this is impossible to document in history or tradition. You seem to posit belief in the Trinity before this truth was revealed. I think that most Christians on this list agree that Jesus revealed God as Three in One and he came among us long after Abraham rested with God.

You report that there is a "cult of the One God" which Christians have been invited to join. Again, where is the verifiable information that one can follow to learn of the tenets of this cult, its membership, its practices, etc?

It is true that we must be alert to the devil who goes about like a lion seeking to destroy believers. Again, thank you for the reminder.

It is important to make a case on verifiable fact or official teaching of the Churches before judging that a particular practice by Christians or the Christians involved are tools of the father of lies.

When it is a case of impuning the faith or practice of fellow Christians, the personal interpretation of Scripture, the prophecy of a freemason, and quotations taken out of context are not enough. We must hold ourselves and each other to a higher degree of proof and Charity when we deal with the good name of our sisters and brothers in Faith. In my opinion, to imply, as you seem to do, that those with whom you do not agree stretch out thier hands to a false God has not met the standard.

Father, pray for me as I do for you.

Please do not let errors in my written expression impede my meaning.

Joy is the infallible sign of the presence of God.

Joe Thur,
There is no need for violence by invoking crusades or Holy Crusades. I know this is what your doctrinal church has taught about "Just War". Believing Orthodox would never kiss the Quran. My Arab Orthodox people and I are the fortunate ones who did not forsake Orthodoxy for Islam and paid the taxes. You speak to a living witness from that part of the world who has a family tree and a long Christian history dating back before the rise of Islam that would shame most Christians. I live in a so-called Christian country and pay taxes here as well. I hold no gripes about it. Do you faithfully pay Caesar's tax and not follow his civil religion?

Father Elias,

There really is no mystery as to what separates Fundamentalist Orthodox from the heterodox. It is called "Orthodoxy!"

I am not being ironic, but Athonites believe in a strict observance of the Holy Canons (which is very difficult and even "quixotic") and a strict interpretation of the Divine and Immutable Truths of the Holy Spirit as revealed in the decrees of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.


I do believe it is perfectly correct and accurate to "label" us Fundamentalist Orthodox, since we try very hard to adhere to the fundamentals of Orthodoxy. I also believe it is accurate to refer to us as narrow and separatist or,if you prefer, counter-cultural Orthodox. We certainly have nothing in common with even humanly contrived Broad Church scheme. "Narrow is the way," and if that makes us look like country rubes, then "rubes we be!" We might say we are Zealots of Orthodoxy with an attitude. Most people certainly would not enjoy the presence of our company which flies in the face of social trends. A popularity club we are not!

JB: On the issue of why the Orthodox have not called for the resurrection of the ancient Orthodox Patriarchate of the West, I, as a simple layman haven't the foggiest idea. But, I will speculate that one of the factors might be that the other Patriarchs, over the centuries, have been engaged in a war of survival. Why worry about Rome? However, I believe that the main reason has always been hope. The hope that Rome would come to her senses and return to the mother that gave her birth: The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

JB: It is correct to remind me that we also have blood on our hands. But, the poster specifically mentioned the Latin Crusades and I responded in kind. I refer to the Pope of Rome as His Holiness because it it good manners. However, I do not recognize popes as Orthodox hierarchs and consider them to be heterodox. On other Roman issues, many of us are indifferent since Rome is outside the pale of Orthodoxy and what Rome does in none of our business. It is bad manners to poke your nose into business that is not your own.


Good Health!

Dear Vasili,

You say that what separates us is Orthodoxy. I profess all that the holy Orthodox Church teaches, and pledge my whole life to teach and preach the purity of Church doctrine, most especially in the canons and doctrines which teach about God, the divinity of the Son and Spirit, one in glory, consubstantial, co-eternal with the Father.

The posts of the sinner John, and Father Basile suggest that I (or other ecumenists) are prepared to surrender this and other doctrines of our Orthodox faith. However this is not true.

We both profess the same faith. The difference is not "Orthodoxy" but a question of courtesy. I am willing to extend courtesy and respect to other believing and non-believing persons. I feel the need to condemn no one (which strikes me as evidence of insecurity in one's own belief, rather than evidence of certainty in Orthodoxy).

I can meet with others, speak with others, embrace others as fellow human beings with dignity and value in the sight of God, even as icons of God, who has stamped all men with his image. Though flawed through sin, and yet redeemed by grace, the image remains.

The only discernable difference I can understand so far, is this question of courtesy and mutual respect for one another's faith and way of living (even if I reject it as not my own).

But I am ready to be informed exactly how I am heterodox. Extending courtesy and human dignity and respect to other human beings is not a heresy. If it is, it is not yet proven to me.

in Christ,

Elias

Robert Sweiss wrote:

>>Moose is right about one thing: I should ask the Pope and the Vatican officials since we cannot possibly read their minds. I have a question for Moose: would he venture to kiss he Quran or the Book of the Mormons that sits on his bookshelf since they may reveal imperfections or distortions about Christ? That is all for now. God bless.<<

Thank you for your comments, Robert. I would hope that someone who is participating here who believes that the respectful gesture of Pope John Paul II in kissing the Quran was a mistake will follow up by contacting the Vatican Press Office and seeking a clarification on the pope's action. It might be difficult since it happened about 1 1/2 years ago.

Would I kiss the Quran or the Book of Moran sitting on my bookshelf? No. Since, however, I am commanded never to be a scandal to anyone I would also never publicly defame or destroy those books in the hopes that those who follow those false religions would in turn have respect for the Bible which I hold holy and not publicly defame it.

I do not know the reasoning behind this gesture by Pope John Paul II. Since he is both the earthly leader of Catholicism as well as the head of state of the Vatican I am willing to give him wide discretion in his actions and would not condemn him without knowing all the evidence. I can speculate into his reasoning as well as anyone else can, but such speculation would be only a guess. Just suppose, however, with this gesture of respect the Holy Father was able to open the door for not only a papal trip to Iraq where he could preach the Gospel but also ensure the cooperation of the Islamic authorities to defeat the pro-abortion planks pushed by the liberals in the United Nations and other groups like UNICEF? Is it not possible that by this one gesture he was able to ensure Islamic cooperation which in turn saved the lives of thousands of children? If this were possible I myself would gladly kiss the dusty feet of an Islamic cleric. I do not in any way claim that this was the pope's intention. But if we are to speculate I can envision a number of rationales for his gesture of respect and I am simply unwilling to condemn him without knowing all the facts.

I would also like to commend you for your patient witness to those Muslims around you. I also have had extensive contact with Muslims. The Muslims I have known have all been Suni Muslims and have been most respectful to me (once they knew that I was a Christian this respect was intensified). I am also aware of the work of an Orthodox priest in Russia who had much success in quietly and politely witnessing the truth of Jesus Christ to the Muslims around him and was responsible for baptizing a number of them into Orthodoxy. The old wives' tales are usually true: you can attract more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

Father Elias and Moose,

Amen. I just want to add a thought or two.

It is true that error has no rights, people do. To treat others and their beliefs with respect is not to endorse false beliefs or to deny one's own true beliefs. Rather it is to respect the freedom of other humans to disagree with us or even worse to sin. This, in my estimation is one sign of true Catholic and true Orthodox behavior. It is true human behavior; it is civility a common trait valued among the mainstream of humanity. It seems to me that civility is a primary form of Charity.

It is important to clarify where error lie and to explain of what it consists. It is also important to be civil and not misrepresent the meaning of the behavior of those who are different. We must assume good will and faith until there is verifiable proof to the contrary.

Without civility how would we get along here where God has placed believers of so many different Faiths and non-believers in such a small place? In places where respect and civil behavior are not present one side or the other side abuses and behaves in a less than humane way. Ultimately, we end up with situations like the ones that exist in Indonesia, Pakistan,and India for those who believe as we do.

I don't think that we want to go there.

Robert Sweiss,


///There is no need for violence by invoking crusades or Holy Crusades. I know this is what your doctrinal church has taught about "Just War".///

Just pulling your chain, Rob. I am a Byzantine Christian. What has the Byzantine Church taught about Just War? Isn�t the Orthodox Church a doctrinal church? What do you mean by �doctrinal church?� You are confusing.


///Believing Orthodox would never kiss the Quran.///

Nor would believing Orthodox collaborate with atheistic regimes, though some Orthodox church leaders have collaborated with such ungodly thugs. This doesn�t mean Catholics are immune from collaborating with the enemy. We are all sick and are in need of our Lord�s medicine. We are all susceptible in refusing the Holy Spirit for our own ends, whether out of fear, intimidation or ignorance.


///My Arab Orthodox people and I are the fortunate ones who did not forsake Orthodoxy for Islam and paid the taxes. You speak to a living witness from that part of the world who has a family tree and a long Christian history dating back before the rise of Islam that would shame most Christians.///

Good for you. My Eastern Catholic family has a long history of being and remaining in communion with Rome. This was true even after their church was declared illegal by Communists and a pseudo-council of former uniate clergy adopted Orthodoxy in order to declare the Greek Catholic Church closed for business. Many would like to deny our rights to exist � even Orthodox Christians, but like you, our faithfulness to that communion would shame most Christians. It is one thing to keep the faith under Islam, it is another to keep the faith under other Christians � even our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. T�is sad.


///I live in a so-called Christian country and pay taxes here as well. I hold no gripes about it. Do you faithfully pay Caesar's tax and not follow his civil religion?///

I live in a country which legalized abortion. Yet I still have to pay my �voluntary tax� to the government. I don�t follow any �civil religion.� My faith is in Christ.


If the Pope kissed the Koran, it would seem like he acted as an apostate. But do you really know his motives? Have you not read his writings? Do you really think he rejected his faith in Jesus Christ? Would I not be considered rash in my judgment to consider the Ecumenical Patriarch a tree-loving New Age heretic because he is the Green Patriarch? Many pounced on the Pope for asking forgiveness too. But the heart of Pharaoh was still cold to forgive. It is my belief that many do not want to accept the Pope�s asking for forgiveness or interpret his actions (kissing the Koran) in a positive light.

Isn�t it a wonder that Jesus cured many non-Jews? That the four women mentioned in his genealogy (Mt 1) were of questionable character and of origins not considered stash? That he ate with sinners, tax-collectors, and the like? That he cured on the Sabbath? That Magi (non-Jews) offered gifts that no Pharisee or Sadducee could give? Funny how the Gospel-writers have documented for us how faith can be found anywhere, especially outside the boundaries of Dogmatic or Orthodox Churches. Who are we to judge? Many interpreted Jesus� miracles in a negative light too, and we all know who they were. Interpretation is usually a good sign of one�s biases. It was something to interpret in a negative light. It was an occasion for selfish glee and not charity.

The interesting thing about religion is that it will always be found out. In the meantime, there will be those who will smite their fellow neighbor � even fellow Christians � to pump them up in their holier-than-thou Phariseeism. Let�s be like the Publican, Rob, and not deny the plank in our own eye.


God bless!
Joe

Surely you jest? "Too busy" is not a valid excuse for ignoring those whom you allege were led astray by a heterodox pope. That is hardly in keeping with the Gospel. "Too busy" for a thousand years to leave the Apostolic See in the hands of the "heterodox"??? Amazing...


This is a tad more understandable -- but not by much. The East never waited for a thousand years with any of the other Patriarchal Sees when they fell into the hands of the heterodox.



Ok.


While I certainly can understand the affinity for Emily Post, this again makes no sense. Since when have the Orthodox given such a deferential address to someone they view as being heterodox? Nestorius hardly received such treatment, the "new Judas" as he was labeled.

Pax Christi,
John

Father Elias,


Only those Christian truths declared dogmas by the Fathers of the Seven Ecumenical Councils are to be considered "orthodox."

Dear Joe Thur,

"...it is quite another to keep the faith under other Christians, even our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. T'is sad."

It is indeed sad. It is even more than sad since some of our Byzantine brothers and sisters felt abuse so severe that they deemed it necessary to break communion with the Servant of the Churches who lives in Rome. It is even worse that that separation continues to this day.

T'was sinful. We Latins should shout our mea culpas for the sins of our fathers, and probably for our own, loudly enough that the Byzantine Church realizes that the plea is real. I don't know if the Pope apologized to the Eastern Churches for the misunderstandings and worse on part of the Western Church that have become part of our common history. It is long overdue if not. It might even help convince the Orthodox that we are serious about restoring communion among all of the Churches of God.

Reply of the Eastern Patriarchs to the Encyclical of Pope Pius IX-1848.

This document is long, but well worth a good read.
JB: Actually, Bishop Kallistos and Bishop Dmitri, as well as others adhere to the "hope" principle.

The Patriarchs were a bit more than just "busy." You need to refresh you memory!
www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1848orthodoxencyclical.html [fordham.edu]

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 01-03-2001).]

Inawe,


//It is indeed sad. It is even more than sad since some of our Byzantine brothers and sisters felt abuse so severe that they deemed it necessary to break communion with the Servant of the Churches who lives in Rome. It is even worse that that separation continues to this day.//

We all had our dibs in that separation. Sin is the only real democracy which we can all take part in.


//We Latins should shout our mea culpas for the sins of our fathers, and probably for our own, loudly enough that the Byzantine Church realizes that the plea is real.//

Many in the Byzantine Catholic Church are thankful for the kind help and cooperation from our RC brothers and sisters. How many missions and churches would have closed if there were no bi-ritual priests? Here is a great example of a win-win situation in building up the Body of Christ.


//I don't know if the Pope apologized to the Eastern Churches for the misunderstandings and worse on part of the Western Church that have become part of our common history. It is long overdue if not. It might even help convince the Orthodox that we are serious about restoring communion among all of the Churches of God.//

I am convinced the Pope can say nothing that will convince the Orthodox of his sincerity unless it is put into action. So far, this particular Pope has done more in his office for the Eastern Catholic Church than any other. I don�t know of any other Orthodox prelate who has raised the ante in kind. I have family members (who are Roman Catholic) who are �active� in ecumenism yet never set foot in my church � even if invited. Other RC family members never even heard of us in their Confirmation classes. The real problem is local and individual.


Joe

It seems that everything possible that can be said about this topic has been said, and that this thread is now starting to wander from its original topic. I would like to close this thread and invite the participants to begin news threads with more appropriate titles to continue the discussions.

I would again like to remind the participants to post in the spirit of Christian charity and to refrain from posting personal attacks. One may disagree with the Holy Father's actions and is free to do so (and have done so at length). One may not cheapen their witness of Jesus Christ by falsely accusing Pope John Paul II of being the "Son of Perdition" and "the antichrist". Those who do so show their ignorance.