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Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Dear Vasili,
Thank you very much for your prayers and that of the holy fathers. May God grant you His reward. I sense that my message has reached only a few.
According to St Pauls's letter 2 Cor.6:14-15 he says "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what has a believer with an unbeliever?" Also according to verse 17 taken from Isaiah 52:11 it says "COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE SEPARATE, SAYS THE LORD. DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN(i.e. QURAN), AND I WILL RECEIVE YOU."

The foundations of Islam, the Quran, are unclean. Those who approve of Islam as a valid religion or a path to God or a way of life are mislead by Satan. I pray for God's mercy be to all.

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it(Mat 7:13-13)."

Maybe the Pope should begin another Holy Crusade? Will the Orthodox join this time? I forgot, the Orthodox might not kiss the Quran, but they do pay their taxes to the Muslims.

Joe

Yes, it is true that as Jesus commanded, "We give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." Jesus also commanded that we not venerate Caesar or his religion.

Crusades? No thank you. The Orthodox found themselves having to defend their religion from both Muslims and Crusaders! If you remember your history, the Crusaders killed more Christians and Jews than Muslims. An evil lot. But, I personally know Catholics (Croats with family links to the Ustashi past) who have such an hatred for the Orthodox that they might very well propose one as the "Final Solution." Thank God, those deranged souls are but a tiny minority within Catholicism. I try to remember them in my prayers. I hope you will also.



[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 01-02-2001).]

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Robert,


I would be very honored if you would look to St.Nicolas Basdanis of Epiros and Thessaly as a source of inspiration and spiritual strength as you serve the Lord and His Church as an evangelist.

This might be selfish on my part, but St.Nicolas was born in my beloved late wife's (vicnaja pamjat) homeland and his relics are in Ioannina, where she was raised. It would honor me if you would honor the Great Martyr who blesses her homeland to this very day.

St.Nicolas converted to Islam. Broken and ashamed of his apostasy, he sought guidance from Anthonite monks and other great Orthodox souls. After much soul searching, he repented of his apostasy and was tortured and martyred by the Muslims. In this umworthy layman's opinion, he is one of the greatest of the New Martyrs.

He is a source of inspiration for us all.


www.orthodox.co.uk/nicolas.htm [orthodox.co.uk]

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 01-02-2001).]

Vasili,

>>My position is very clear and unambiguous and is perfectly consistent with the position of the Monks of the Holy Mountain, who are my teachers in Orthodoxy: veneration of the Quran by Orthodox Christians is forbidden because it is an heretical document.<<

We agree that it is forbidden to venerate the Quran. We disagree that that is what the pope did. If you asked your pastor if it was wrong to venerate the Quran he certainly should say "yes". But we do not have evidence that this is what the pope was doing. I am unwilling to condemn him for his actions without knowing all the facts. You, Robert and others here are quite eager to condemn him without knowing all the facts. That's the difference.


>>I do not like these spats, but the positive news is that they remind us of how different we are, even though we might look so much alike. From my point of view, this is healthy because it provides people with real and legitimate, but different, forms of Byzantine Christianity to choose from.<<

I also do not like this type of discussion and usually simply avoid posting altogether. Most of the Orthodox (not in communion with Rome) who post on this forum participate with great respect for others. In many previous threads your post have been quite similar to mine. But in this thread your posts, and those of Robert, Sinner John and others have crossed the line into personal attack, even though they were posted with the claim of not being such an attack.

I am surprised that you consider yourself so different from us. It is clear that you do not really know us.

All the best to you in the New Year!


Robert,

>>Also according to verse 17 taken from Isaiah 52:11 it says "COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE SEPARATE, SAYS THE LORD. DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN(i.e. QURAN), AND I WILL RECEIVE YOU."<<

Are you accusing Pope John Paul II of teaching that Islam is equal to Christianity? If yes, please provide proof. His whole life has been one of purposefully proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

V wrote that : "However, that assertion does not apply to other parts of the "Christian East," including Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Macedonia, etc. Orthodoxy teaches that Islam is a heresy and Mohammed is an heretic.
It is hard to dialogue with heretics!"

I agree, but it is still done. The Russian Orthodox Church, for example, has been engaging in a dialogue with both the Armenians and the Azerbaijani Muslim leadership in order to try to assuage tensions in Transcaucasia -- and address issues of common interest. There's an interesting piece on this at the website for the Moscow Patriarchate.

Nice picture, too.

Brendan



[This message has been edited by Brendan (edited 01-02-2001).]

Moose,

I do not want to keep going with this issue, but my pastor (who knew of the event long before I did) referred to the gesture as an act of veneration. I have no idea of what the Pope was thinking at the time. End of issue for me.

Yes, I do believe that those of us who are "Athonites" are very different from Byzantine Catholics and even "Moderate" Orthodox, but all of us are Byzantines. And isn't that what the Byzantine Forum is all about? Being Byzantine Christians!


Kalh Chronia!

Brenden,

"Blessed are the peacemakers!"

Yes! Nice picture. ( Thank God! Patriarch Alexy isn't kissing the Sheikh's forehead!)

Happy New Year!

Vasili,

>>I do not want to keep going with this issue, but my pastor (who knew of the event long before I did) referred to the gesture as an act of veneration. I have no idea of what the Pope was thinking at the time. End of issue for me. <<

I am glad to find that you are no longer judging the pope's intention in this matter. I would submit to both you and your priest that since it is forbidden for Christians - including the pope - to venerate the Quran, the pope's gesture could not have been one of veneration and must have been nothing more than a gesture of respect. We can disagree as to whether the pope erred in sending the wrong signal to Christians with this gesture but I would submit that it is wrong of anyone - including your priest - to assume that this was indeed an act of veneration. The evidence of Pope John Paul II's life testifies only his faith in Jesus Christ and the pope's teachings indicate that while Islam contains some seeds of truth it is a false religion.

>>Yes, I do believe that those of us who are "Athonites" are very different from Byzantine Catholics and even "Moderate" Orthodox, but all of us are Byzantines. And isn't that what the Byzantine Forum is all about? Being Byzantine Christians!<<

I have always had great respect for the Athonite monks. But the Athonite monks do not constitute the entirety of the Orthodox Church nor are they more Orthodox than the babushka clad Baba down the street (not to mention that her cooking is much more appealing to this Moose). Remember that the hardness of opinion by the monks of Athos is due to both a firm commitment to Orthodoxy as well as a lack of understanding of Orthodox life off the mountain. You are absolutely correct, however, in that we are all Byzantine Christians and the disagreement in this thread is only a minor one amongst brothers and sisters.

"THE HEBREW AND ISLAMIC PEOPLES, AND CHRISTIANS... these three expressions of an identical monotheism, speak with the most authentic and ancient, and even the boldest and most confident voices. Why should it not be possible that the name of the same God, instead of engendering irreconcilable opposition, should lead rather to mutual respect, understanding and peaceful coexistence? Should the reference to the same God, the same Father, without prejudice to theological discussion, not lead us rather one day to discover what is so evident, yet so difficult - that we are all sons of the same Father, and that, therefore, we are all brothers?" -Pope Paul VI, La Croix, Aug. 11, 1970

"He confessed, 'We, Christians, acknowledge with joy the religious values we share with Islam.' Referring to his historic visit to Casablanca in Morocco in 1985, when he met thousands of young Moslems, the Pope added: 'We believe in the same God, the only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and who lifts creatures to perfection.'" ZENIT, May 5, 1999

And so nobody thinks I am bias...

"The prophet Mohammed is an apostle. He is a man of God, who worked for the Kingdom of God and created Islam, a religion to which belong one billion people. . . . Our God is the Father of all men, even of the Moslems and Buddhists. I believe that God loves the Moslems and the Buddhists...When I speak against Islam or Buddhism, then I am not found in agreement [concord?] with God. ...My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox. This is my position." -Parthenius, "Patriarch" of Alexandria and All Africa (Orthodoxos Typos, Issue Number 854, Athens, Greece)
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All the gods of the pagans are demons (Psalm 95:5).

"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (I John 2:22-23)

[This message has been edited by SinnerJohn (edited 01-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SinnerJohn (edited 01-02-2001).]

Sinner John's most recent post is quite correct in that the quotes are accurate. But if he is applying it to the Holy Father he accuses falsely.

The Jews worship the God of Abraham but do not understand and accept Jesus Christ as Son of God and Savior. The Muslims also worship the same God of Abraham and wrongfully reject Jesus Christ as Son of God and Savior. The fact that the Jews and Muslims do not understand all that we know to be true about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit does not mean that they do not worship the same God. It means that they do not understand the Truth and need to be taught and led by our love of Jesus Christ.

Sinner John posts these quotes in a false accusation against Pope John Paul II. But I don't think that he realizes that these are quite excellent posts that support the work of the Holy Father:

Why should it not be possible that the name of the same God, instead of engendering irreconcilable opposition, should lead rather to mutual respect, understanding and peaceful coexistence?

The first step of witnessing Jesus Christ is one of dialogue and open communication, building on what we hold in common.


'We, Christians, acknowledge with joy the religious values we share with Islam.'

Even though the Muslims do not accept the truth about Jesus Christ, we can work together with them for a better world. Catholics and Muslims are the strongest voices in the United Nations and groups like UNICEF in preventing the passage of pro-abortion and pro-homosexual rights planks. Countless babies and other people can be saved because of this effort.


My God is the God of other men also. He is not only God for the Orthodox.

As we sing at Matins each morning: "The Lord is God and has revealed himself to us." Our God is the God of the whole world - even of the Jews, Muslims and pagans. Our God is omnipotent. He has revealed himself to us and we are commanded to teach all the world about Him.


All the gods of the pagans are demons (Psalm 95:5).

Byzantine emperor and Orthodox theologians like John Cantacuzenos not only supported the great St. Gregory Palamas but also eloquently refuted Islam. He, together with numerous Orthodox and Catholic theologians throughout the ages, point out the errors of Islam but acknowledge that the Muslims do indeed worship the God of Abraham as do the Jews and we Christians. This does not mean that their theology is correct because it is not. It does mean that while they do not understand the Truth they are praying to the same Creator and God who has revealed himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This is something that has always interested me, since it seems quite inconsistent with the hardline some Orthodox take. If indeed Roman Catholics are heterodox in your view, the pope being the chief culprit I suppose, then why do you bother to refer to him as "His Holiness"? For that matter, why hasn't Orthodoxy not bothered to appoint a new "orthodox" bishop of Rome, patriarch of the West? Since he is no doubt viewed by such hardliners as being heterodox, one would think that the Orthodox would wish to have an "orthodox" bishop in the Apostolic See of Peter. Given that the pope is heterodox in this view and general Orthodox beliefs on apostolic succession, how can he even said to have apostolic succession (let alone the other RC bishops)? Puzzling...

Pax Christi,
John

Tsk-tsk, let's not forget that the Byzantines invited the Crusaders for some of these campaigns against the Muslims. Obviously this in no way justifies the sack of Constantinople or such things as the Massacre of Jerusalem. Nevertheless, the hands of Easterners are hardly clean on some of these Crusades. Even without the Crusaders, the East had a few "crusades" of its own against heretical groups like the Bogomils.

Pax Christi,
John

Amen. Thanks for posting this info.

Pax Christi,
John


www.orthodox.co.uk/nicolas.htm [orthodox.co.uk]

[This message has been edited by Vasili (edited 01-02-2001).][/B][/QUOTE]

Dear, in Christ,

With all respect to Moose, who continues to assert that we agree with one another in much more than we disagree, I am beginning to wonder if it is indeed possible that "Athonite" Orthodox, are actually quite different from us.

A very interesting question, anyway. The Athonite position (I am not sure there is only one) is often heroically Quixotic, eg. against all odds and against the accepted conventions of the age.

A minority position is something I can admire, and respect, for the courage it involves if nothing else. (I have found myself in a hopeless minority once or twice.)

But I am curious if someone could explain how "Athonite" Orthodoxy differs from the rest of us who consider ourselves Orthodox?

If it is defined only negatively,"it refuses to tolerate Islam or show respect to Moslems", or that it is needful to "denounce error and condemn heresy always and wherever it exists", or that it is defined as "not Papacy" (too Latin), "not Bartholomew" (neo-Papistic, and too ecumenical), "not this or that..." ...then I can't cope with it.

Someone explained to me that it is something akin to what "Radical Fundamentalism" is to mainline Protestant denominations. But I can't think that would be true, nor that the monks of the holy mountain would really be "fundamentalistic" in this way.

Can you help me, and explain what is "Athonite" Orthodoxy, spoken postively and in a way that I can hope try to understand (and appreciate) it?

Thank you,

Elias, monk