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Tony,

You are quite correct. Thank you for pointing out my error. I hope that people can see the larger point I was making.

Admin

You may be correct. No one has presented me with evidence that the various Slavic groups are anything other than very close members of the same family living in different households.

Ukrainians are to Russians as Germans are to Semites? That seems to be a great stretch. Perhaps a closer analogy would be that Ukrainians are to Russians as Calabrian Italians are to Sicilian Italians?

Actually, I have a great story along those lines. Back after the first Gulf War the Embassy of Saudi Arabia held a �thank you� event at their embassy in Washington, DC. When I entered I was greeted with �Salaam!� Without thinking I responded �Shalom, to you, too!� The veiled lady was horrified and quickly told me that �Shalom� was Jewish and �Salaam� was Arabic and they were two distinct cultures. I responded that they were both a greeting of peace and the fact that they had a common word for both was a sign of similar cultures, even if they don�t share the same religion. She didn�t know what to say. Interestingly, the whole event was biased. Their re-presentation of the Gulf War to liberate Kuwait spoke only of the triumphant multi-Arabic forces led by Saudi Arabia and forgot to mention U.S. involvement. The map of the Mid-East didn�t show Israel but someone had gone behind the cord to add it with a magic marker. [No matter what one thinks of the politics of the country of Israel it is kind of silly to pretend it doesn�t exist.]

Admin

Back to those Chinese restaurants - and I will happily accept the Administrator's invitation - one of the best I ever knew was in Winnipeg, believe it or not, and the first item on the menu that struck my eye was "Chinese pirogies". They were utterly delicious.
Incognitus

Dear Administrator,

I do not think that my beliefs are biased concerning the ethnicity of the peoples in the Carpathian mountains. I understand that your ethnicity is American-Slovak, and perhaps you should take a more honest and realistic perspective on my labelling the peoples of Mukachevo Eparchy as 'Ukrainians'.

As a life long member of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Canada (I still have not formaly transfered) I am fully within my historical right to refer to my fellow Subcarpathian-Rusyns as Ukrainians.

There is ample historical evidence which outlines the fact that in the late 19th century, the immigrants who arrived in Canada from what is now the Ukrainian Republic refered to themselves by a variety of terms which reflected the empires from which they originated. These included; Ukrainians(small minority at the time believe it or not), Bukovynians, Galicians, Ruthenians, Hutsuls, Volynians, Kozaks, Russians, Poles, Austro-Hungarians, and a variety of other labels. In fact, most of these immigrants only took on the label 'Ukrainian' once they had been in Canada and decided they were the same people who had a common language, fate, and faith which bound them.

My maternal grandparents (emigrated to Canada in the 1920's from Galicia, Poland), my mother (born in Canada), and I were always acquainted with peoples from Sub-Carpathian Ukraine who identified with the larger Ukrainian family. They attended our churches. Also, in my lifetime, there has never been a separate 'Ruthenian' church in Canada. The term 'Ruthenian' was only used when discussing church matters.

Canadian Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Orthodox from what is now Subcarpathian Ukraine are not distinguishable from the larger Ruthenian Umbrella group. It is the same situation in the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Australia, and the rest of the world. My views on the nomenclature of subcarpathian Ukrainians is in keeping with the majority of these peoples around the world.

The fact that in the United-States of America, some of the progeny of distant immigrants wish to refer to themselves as 'Ruthenians' does not make my statement that "the 'Mukachevites' are Ukrainian" incorrect. Your view on this point is in minority - everywhere. The fact that you hold this American view on 'Ruthenism' and perhaps share it with a small minority of people in Subcarpathian Ukraine is perfectly acceptable, but it is the minority academic and common opinion. My opinion is the norm and is not incorrect or insulting.

Further, your view that somehow the Pittsburg Metropolia USA is the only safekeeper of all things Carpatho-Rusyn is also an American centric view. In Canada where there is no separate 'Ruthenian' church, the Ukrainians have built a number of wonderful churches and chapels to reflect the beauty and charm of the Carpathian mountains, all within the structure of either the UGCC or UOC. In fact, it would appear that Joe Thur (Byz Cath USA) has used a number of them on his Byzantine heritage web site, and he did correctly label them as being part of the larger Ukrainian group.

Historical, cultural, and literal traditions of the Carpathians have also been highly preserved, documented, and expanded on in both the United States and Canada. Carpathian Ukrajinoznavstvo includes hundreds of books published by top univeristies, many of which are used in Ukraine as the 'gold standards' in their area of expertise. Further, I have yet to see a Ukrainian dance group that does not perform a variety of dances from the Carpathian 'tribes'. You may be shocked to hear that I, and two band members played the Carpathian Hutsul 'Trembita' (long horn like instrument played in the mountains) at Vatican square in 1988 to open the millnennium of Christianity in Ukraine events (the Pope told us it reminded him of the Tatras - Polish Carpathians). There are endless other examples of the larger Ruthenian umbrella group (the Ukrainians) preserving and promoting the unique Carpathian-Ukrainian culture.

You must also come to terms with the fact that at the very time (late 1930's) that the American Ruthenian church was moving away from the larger Ukrainian Greek-Catholic one here in the USA, the events in the old country were the exact opposite. The democratically elected government of Monsignor Avgustin Voloshy (Ruthenian Greek-Catholic) declared a Carpatho-Ukrainian nation with the intention of merging with the other Ukrainians once democracy was established. The declaration enjoyed the full episcopal support of the Greek-Catholic Church of Subcarpathia-Ruthenia. In other words, the peoples who now live in what is Subcarpathian Ukraine freely choose to be refered to as Carpatho-Ukrainians and sought a closer relationship with the UGCC in Lviv. The Communists cemented that relationship in a very cruel way after the war.

The fact that your American Ruthenian church took a different direction just before WW2 is perfectly acceptable. However, my father who was living in Eastern Europe was enculturated by the events I mentioned and still believes that these peoples are 'Ukrainians' just as much as they are 'Carpatho-Rusyns'. He in turn passed that life experience to me. This of course all happened long after most Ruthenian American's ancestors arrived in America.

I myself have travelled through the Carpathian mountains twice and have met many people who have identified themselves during our discussion (in perfect Ukrainian) by various labels. I have heard, Ukrainian, Ukrainian-Rusyn, Rusyn, Russian, Polish, Hungarian, and other. All agreed that they were citizens of Ukraine. This would be congruent with government statistics.

Even in Slovakia's Presov region where Slovak assimmilation has been severe, there is about 50-50 split between existing Rusyns and Ukrainians. If a duel label had been recorded (ie: Rusyn-Ukrainian) the differentiation/polarization would have been even less distinguishable or significant.

Today the Greek-Catholics from Mukachiv are more likely to attend UGCC churches in the USA, and do so almost everywhere else in the world because of the language issue (they speak Ukrainian) and the ability to identify with the larger group. There are less than 12,000 American citizens who identify themselves as 'Rusyn' and only a small fraction of that who speak the language. They are even a minority in your own Metropolia USA.

In summary, the term 'Ukrainian' for people or their churches, in what was Subcarpathian-Rus during the interwar period, is valid from a historical and political perspective dating back several generations. The term 'Ukrainian' is not mutually exclusive of 'Carpatho-Rusyn' but is in fact inclusive of it just as Galician is. The majority of the people who live there are comfortable with one, or both labels. Further, the choice of one over the other does not in most cases translate into some political activism as U-C seem to think.

Please refrain from insisting on refering to the peoples and the church only as Ruthenians (or Rusyns) when in fact 'Ukrainians' or Carpatho-Ukrainians is in reality more common for the same people today. Although I respect your opionion you should not be insistant on it. It's just an opinion and not congruent with most peoples.

Hritzko

Hritko, once again you are speaking as though you are currently living in Transcarpathia and know what everyone's view is concerning ethnicity and patriotism. Until a true census concerning ethnic identification is completed, we can not assume everyone is a conscious Ukrainian.

If everyone claims to be Ukrainian, why did the majority of the population in Transcarpathia vote for autonomous self-rule? Since the fall of communism in 1991, many cultural and educational organizations have formed in Transcapathia to promote Rusyn ethnicity. In the last 13 years, many scholars and educators have been writing and publishing in the codified Transcarpathian Rusyn language. This cultural activity has caught the eye of the international community, namely the Council of Europe's Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Ukraine has been a member of both organizations. Because Ukraine has violated these conventions concerning ethnic minorities is just one of the reasons why Ukraine has not been voted into the European Union yet.

I have visted Transcarpathia 3 times in the last 10 years. I have met many local Transcarpathians who identify themselves as being Rusyn. This astonished me because I know that the government
forbids any Rusyn cultural and educational expressions. I have also visted many Greek Catholic and Orthodox parishes in Transcarpathia and have found them to be very hospitable to a Rusyn orientation, especially those in the Orthodox churches under the MP.

You like to make a political reference to the 1939 Carptho-Ukraine Republic. That took place during WWII after Hungary already annexed most of Slovakia and the southwestern area of Subcarpathian-Rus' all the way to the town of Chust. That was hardly a time of democratic rule. Before WWII broke out, the politics was very mixed. Some Subcarpathian-Rus' governmental officials were Russophiles, some were Rusynophiles and some were Ukrainophiles. If WWII did not take place, there very well could have been a Carpathian-Rus' political entity or at least an autonomous province of a neighboring country.

I have no problem with Ukrainians (in America or elsewhere). I have met some Ukrainian-Americans during my college years and have always enjoyed the numerous religious and cultural exchanges I have had with them. While we always had opposing opinions in the Rusyn vs. Ukrainian issue, we have always respected each other's different views. I just can't tolerate when someone tries to belittle the idea that a Rusyn identity only exists in America and not in the Carpathian homeland.

Dear Ung-Certez,

I thought it best to take some time to review basic historical facts so that you better understand the errors in your posts.

I do not need to live in Zakarpattia Oblast (part of Transcarpathia) of Ukraine to understand the ethnicity and policial dynamics. Unlike yourself, I speak the language fluently and can pick up a phone and call anyone who has one and is willing to talk with me. If you like we can have a conference call with anyone in Zakarpattia Oblast, Ukraine who is willing to participate. I will offer to translate for you from 'Rusyn' to English. This should be no problem since I speak both languages perfectly (not that I ever studied Rusyn, it's just that it's the same language as Ukrainian).

Further, I have many friends (Canadian & American) who currently work for the Ukrainian government, NATO, private industries, and other professions within Ukraine which can provide me with information which you will never seee in print. I also know several members of different levels of government from all Oblasts (districts) of Ukraine. I myself worked for Air Ukraine International (in Ukraine) for 9 months in the early 90's, and as a participant in NATO's 'Partners for Peace' program in Canada by training Ukrainian Republican military officers in Canada for their future incorporation into the alliance. Also, my brother is a personal friend of the future president of Ukraine and is very well known in emigree circles (just ask Alex if he is still lurking ). I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

My views are the common consensus, well documented, and can verified at any time.

Question:
Perhaps you can provide me with some of your high level connections and/or 'inside information sources'

The majority of the people did claim ethnic Ukrainian identity and continue to do so in the region. There are ample government and private sources for this information.

There were no guarantees about Ukraine's idependance which was declared in August and subject to a referendum in December of 1991. The Soviet Union had made very strong public comments regarding the need to 'help their peoples' in areas (Oblasts) of Ukraine which did not vote overwhelmingly in favour of independance. They had mentioned Zakarpattia Oblast as part of their targeted regions for potential military 'aid to their brothers' (ie: another occupation / invasion a la Moldova).

With this in mind, there were a variety of strategies which were used during the 1991 referendum as 'fall-back' plans in the event that a region did not win a strong majority vote (66% or higher). Again, the fear was that in weak pro-independance Oblasts, Russia would claim the regions as 'pro Soviet Union' and invade them with their military to 'protect the Russians'. By inserting the autonomy clause, Kyiv felt it could deflect Russian Soviet invasion plans for any region which did not have a strong pro-Ukrainian independance vote. Kyiv felt it better to pro-actively give some form of autonomy over the possibility of a Russian Soviet military occupation.

As it turned out the Zakarpattia Oblast overwelmingly voted for independace of Ukraine from Russia. There was a majority vote in all the Oblasts of Ukraine, and only Krym (Crimea) with it's very strong ethnic Russians population did not vote overwhelmingly in favour of independance (57% ?) and so to play it safe, it had been granted some limited autonomy. If it had not been for the war in Chechnya, there are few who believe the Russians would not have gone to war over Crimea with Ukraine. They may still do so.

Question:
For what purpose did you think the 'autonomy clause' had been inserted into the 1991 referendum ?

Perhaps I should explain something which seems to escape you, and perhaps the Hungarian Professor has not fully explained to you (for good reason ). ALL expressions of regionalism were banned in Soviet Ukraine. Contrary to what you may think, not only was Carpatho-Rusyn culture banned as a separate entity but so were all others, including Galician-Rusyn Culture. Just as the Soviets had made Carpathian Rusyn regional ethnicity dissapear, so did they Galician and other groups. The Carpathian Rusyns were not more targeted than any other group. Ukraine had become 'Soviet Ukraine' and there were no more historical regions, but instead administrative 'Oblasts' which have remained, but are now used in conjunction with the more historical terms. The fact that the Carpathian Rusyns are enjoying a revival of their particular culture, is not different than almost every other region of Ukraine.

The United States, Canada, and Western Europe are doing all possible to include Ukraine in the EU. Russia is doing all possible to keep it out. There are also serious irregularities (corruption) in regards to government affairs and trade which will have to be corrected before Ukraine is admited.

Again, you seem to be confused. In regards to ethnic minorities, Ukraine has been held up as the model for Europe to follow.Your statement is boggus and nothing more than your own feelings. Here is a far better analysis:

The Ukrainian Republic - A model for ethnic tolerance as announced on BBC radio [risu.org.ua]

I'm glad you have visited Transcarpathia 3 times in 10 years. The area needs as much foreign tourism as possible and you are doing a good thing by visiting. However, the rest of your statement is completely boggus if only because it is incongruent with your very own statement that there is a renewal of Rusynism. Just as Galicians are more than welcome to promote their Galician-Rusyn ethnicity, so are the Carpatho-Rusyns. Just as Italians can promote Sicilian or Milano culture, so can the Ukrainians promote various regional ethnicities.

I'm hospitable to Carpatho Rusyn orientation. Why should I not be. I'm not ethno-Galician Rusyn centric.

The Orthodox under the MP, although they may have a Rusyn orientation, they are as a rule very anti Greek Catholic. In fact, there have been recent attack by some of the MP members on Greek Catholics and their churches (please see recent RISU posting on the matter). These Orthodox Christians do not trust the Catholic Church at all to preserve their rite. One only has to look at the damage in next door Slovakia to fully understand where their fears come from.

You seem like most Americans to confuse Rusyn, Ukrainian, Russian, Ukrainian orientation Rusyn, Russian Orientation Rusyn, and many other labels and this is the primary source of your problems. If the referendum had produced a weak vote in 1991 (or minority in faour), the MP (Rusyn orientation or not) may have called their 'elder brothers' to come down for a visit to protect their Orthodox faith from the Latinizing Slovaks next door. Do you understand what I'm saying ?

You are very confused and completely out of sync with all history books on this issue, including those writen by Hungarian Professor (and which he continues to sell). Even the European Slovak Greek Catholic official web site states in it's history of the Greek Catholic Church that: the Ruthenians were undergoing difficult national self preservation issues throughout the WHOLE interwar period.

President Voloshyn did speed up the decleration because they had come to realize that Hungary had plans to annex Carpatho-Ukraine / Rus and would never permit it to be a free country. The brutality of their annexation is proof of how much the Hungarians were determined to never permit the Carpatho-Ukrainians / Rusyns to be independant.

Carpatho-Ukrainian independance was an ongoing generational process throughout the interwar period. The Galicians were helping DEMOCRATICALY ELECTED CARPATHO-RUTHENIANS self actualize as a peoples and a church. At the very same time, the Ruthenian Metropolia USA abandoned them

Read my post to the administrator. I respect your opinion, but it is by far the minority one, both here in North America and the Ukraine. You should respect ours.

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko,

Thanks for your post. No one in my family has ever used the term �Slovak� to describe himself or herself. My grandparents were from near Uzhorod and always referred to themselves as simply �Rusin�.

I just received an e-mail this morning from a friend who was kind enough to ask some questions of one of his friends at the Blessed Theodore Romzha Seminary in Uzhorod. The specific questions I requested to be asked of this person were: �What is your ethnicity?� and �Do you consider yourself to be Ukrainian?� The answers were: �I am a Rusyn� and �No. I am not a Ukrainian.�

This is an excerpt from the e-mail back that I received:

�He recalls his Grandfather saying, I was born Rusyn, I am Rusyn, and I will die Rusyn. His family still feels the same. But they can't do anything about the borders. They relished in Rusyn Slavic identity, when they tried to preserve their slavic heritage against the Hungarians. They welcomed the Russians when Stalin changed the borders, only to find that the Slavs that came were not orthodox defenders of slavic heritage (which the Hungarians despised), but communist oppressors. So much for pan-slavism. Still, they are the rusyn people, never have been ukrainians. Now the ukrainians are trying to make them ukrainians, just like the hungarians tried to make them hungarian, same story, and still they are here.

At the recent elections in the Ukraine, when you registered to vote, you could indicate ethnic background. ukrainain, russian, armenian, etc. One of the options (for the first time) was rusyn!

I do not understand why they would need to list ethnicity on a form to register to vote, but I am pleased that �Rusyn� is now considered a separate, non-Ukrainian ethnic group by the government of Ukraine.

You are free to believe that Rusins are really Ukrainians. Your believing it does not make it so.

Admin

Here is a Rusyn website from Transcarpathia
for all who read Cyrillic.

http://www.karpatorusyns.org/weblog.php.

Ung-Certez

Correction,

http://www.karpatorusyns.org/weblog.php

Ung-Certez

Dear Administrator,

Since you have nothing new to ad, let us just agree to dissagree.

Hritzko

C-U,

The organization's web site you have posted here is in fact a pro-Russian 'pseudo-Orthodox' Carpatho-Rusyn organization. It originated in Slovakia and migrated into Ukraine. They are a relatively small group, but determined to 'reunite' their peoples with the Russians (those from Russia). You will notice that their tri-coloured flag is the same as the Russian Federation (albeit in a different order). They are using the same strategy as the Moldovan Russians to seek 'protection' from the Russian Federation.

People sympathetic to this group have recently beat up Slovak Greek Catholic priests in Ukraine and have threatened them repeatedly for bringing Catholicism to Ukraine. They are also highly suspect of burning several historical Carpathian wooden churches which have been returned to the Greek-Catholics.

Should you require more information concerning my comments, I would suggest that you read RISU more regularly.

If you feel that this is worthy of promotion, then you as a moderator of this forum should be removed and/or the American Byzantine Church should have you censured.

I urge you to remove this anti-Catholic site, and learn the language before you post in the future.

Hritzko

I looked at that web-site myself this morning and immediately realized that it is the work of people promoting a Great Russian agenda with an Orthodox tinge to it. Now why does that cause me to think of the present Russian government? Perhaps that explains why the specific variety of Russian used is marred by Soviet-era abbreviations.
The appeal to the European Union is written in Russian, which seems odd, since Russian is not a lnaguage of the European Union. It would have been more sensible to have written in a language more immediately accessible to the parliamentarians and civil servants of the European Union. The European Union does take an interest in minority groups and minority languaes - even as I write the European Union is assisting a number of minority groups in the Altai and elsewhere in Asiatic Russia - but I'm inclined to agree that the people behind this web site are not really interested in creating a local identity for their community in Ukraine.
Incognitus

Hritzko,

Thank you for your post. Yes, we will have to agree to disagree.

I believe that testimony from people who live in Uzhorod does add to the conversation. I was just doing a little reading and came across a 1995 article by Dr. Paul Magosci in which he writes that polls of the peoples of Transcarpathia (within today�s borders of Ukraine) showed that almost 80% support some form of political autonomy. The information I have been receiving from Uzhorod in recent weeks suggests that support for political autonomy is still very strong.

I recommend that you allow the Rusins the freedom to be whoever they are. Forcing them to become ethnic Ukrainians will only succeed in creating animosity towards Ukrainians, and that is never good.

I say this as an American of Rusin heritage. Oh, wait! You told me earlier that I my grandparents from Uzhorod were not Rusin but Slovak. But since I had Mongolian Grill from the Chinese restaurant tonight and �you are what you eat� maybe I�m really Chinese? Or Mongolian? Wait! Wait! Remember the Tar Tar Pass! That�s how we Rusins got brown hair and brown eyes!

Admin

U-C

When did you become a moderator ? Someone should probably clarify the exact date, so that it can be referenced correctly in the proclamation censuring you. Oh, btw, congrats on the position.

Many years,

Neil

I just stumbled onto this thread; the topic of Romanian churches and tourists did not interest me and I had no idea the thread had quickly wandered off into territory that has fascinated me for the last few years. I went back and read all four pages.
I started out as a curious outsider, one quickly confused: just who were these people with whom I was worshiping? I have read Rusyn-oriented histories, and Ukrainian-oriented histories and have dug through the old stuff in my [Ruthenian] parish library.
My tentative conclusion is that the people we know as "Rusyns" were impovershed Slavs who had no strong national identity, who identified mostly as "Uniates" [a term which had no negative suggestions until fairly recently, sort of like "colored" to black people] and as people of a particular village. In the nineteenth century there was, as everywhere, a nationalist ferment, with some of the intellectuals identifying with the Russians [influenced by pan-Slavism], some with the Ukrainians, some with the Slovaks, and some [in the end the predominant faction] with an independent Rusyn identity.
I have read one book of Rusyn history, dating from the 70s, which referred to Ukrainian nationalism as the "Ukrainian menace"!
Closer to home, old photos of the original church show that it was originally called "St Nicholas Russian Greek Catholic Church" and old clippings called the music performed by the parish choral group "Russian folk tunes". Some people in my parish call themselves "Rusyn", some "Slovak" and some "Ruthenian". One lady says she is Hungarian and I am not clear if this is "really" her ethnicity, or if her ancestors were merely identifying with the empire that ruled them.
Anyway, it is fascinating and all my conclusions are tentative.

As for cuisine, I once lived in Northern Virginia and must say the DC area is unrivalled for good eats. I mean everyone from everywhere has an embassy or some sort of outpost there and they all have to have a place to eat.
Good Chinese and even Thai food can be found in Ohio; what I miss is the Ethiopian, Jamaican, Perivian and Vietnamese food [Arlington being, outside of Vietnam, no doubt the best place in the world for this cuisine!]