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You see! You see! Logos Teen proves my point!

He is a Sicilian-American fascinated by the potential links of his ancestors to the Byzantine Rite in Sicily.

Who knows, maybe he'll return there someday!

In Christ,
Andrew

Andrew writes that "My understanding is that when His Grace, Bishop Ercole (Luppinaci) was in Staten Island most recently, he was petitioned ONCE AGAIN by Our Lady of Grace to reestablish the Italo-Greek Rite in North America. I beleive that the response was something to the effect that he did not possess the authority to do so.

"Remember, his diocese in Calabria and the other Italo-Albanian Greek diocese in Sicily are Eparchies responsible directliness to His Holines, the Pope of Rome. They are in effect, auxilliaries and have to authority in North America."

The Bishop of Lungro and the Bishop of Piana degli Greci (Albanesi) are not auxiliaries of anybody; they are diocesan ordinaries in full right. They do not, of course, have direct jurisdiction in the USA. But the solution is simple enough: if there is a serious group of people (as opposed to dilettantes) who are honestly willing to make the necessary sacrifices and do the necessary work in any major Italian center in North America, then they must gather, organize, obtain a priest from Italy, AND START HOLDING SERVICES. It's not nice, but it works. Rome does not argue with success. If no church edifice will allow them in, then find an Italian social hall willing to provide space (perhaps for money). But a group which is not holding services and is not serious will accomplish nothing.
It can be done; it has been done. Good works are wrought with trouble, and accomplished with pain.
Incognitus

Incognitus,

Am I reading your post correctly?

Why must a particular ethnicity have to be the nucleus of a group in order to start an outreach or mission? Cyril and Methodius did not begin a mission because Greeks were living among the Slavs. What would be wrong if a group had no ethnic ties to a particular tradition, yet met all the requirements of sacrifice and petitioned, say, the Melkite Bishop to begin an outreach or mission?

I was looking up something else and on this site found a little, tiny bit of relevent information. http://www.prosphora.org/
Scroll to the very bottom of the page.

Father Deacon asks me "Why must a particular ethnicity have to be the nucleus of a group in order to start an outreach or mission? Cyril and Methodius did not begin a mission because Greeks were living among the Slavs. What would be wrong if a group had no ethnic ties to a particular tradition, yet met all the requirements of sacrifice and petitioned, say, the Melkite Bishop to begin an outreach or mission?"
It doesn't have to be the nucleus of a group to start an outreach or mission. But you don't need to convince me, you need to convince a bishop in the appropriate place if you wish to begin a mission which ignores ethnicity (and I wish you all the luck in the world with that - just try, for example, to convince a Ruthenian bishop to bless a mission that eschews Prostopinije).
However, the subject under discussion is the specific matter of the Italo-Greeks. These are a specific cultural group, who should be represented in places where there are people with strong reasons to find them attractive.
Incognitus

Andrew,

Until your post, I hadn't seen anything about Bishop Ercole's most recent visit but, on the occasion of a prior visit, the thrust of the Staten Islanders' request of him was that he support the establishment of an exarchate or other canonical jurisdiction in the U.S. Now, such is unlikely to happen, as we well know, unless/until there is demonstration of a greater presence than a single "mission" in NY and a parish in LV under the Ruthenian omophor.

To Incognitus' point, Staten Island has apparently not directed its energies or resources to the acquisition or even use of space wherein it could conduct weekly Liturgy - for instance through the kind offices of a Latin pastor making use of his church. Last I knew, they were only serving a single Liturgy in each month and I wonder who is serving that, since Archimandrite Januarius is in California and Archimandrite Francis in Las Vegas. Seemingly, that makes a the Italian offer of a priest a worthwhile one, which ought to be taken up. The lack of a priest certainly mitigates against the NY Archdiocese rushing to offer space for their ongoing use. I'm wondering if dispersal of the society's faithful has made it unlikely that they can re-establish the functional canonical identity that seems to have evaporated after repose of Papas Ciro Pinnola, memory eternal, in the late 40s.

I did a quick directory search, hoping that there was at least one practicing Italo-Albanian or Italo-Greek among the forum members who might give us some insight. No such luck.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

for the record Fr. Jan has been in Denver since this past summer, July or August, 2003, serving the Byzantine Catholic parish of Holy Protection.

I must make some responses here:

First of all why was Dn. John DeMeis not ordained to serve as a priest? (OOPs! He had that "wife thing" that is prohibited to North American Byzantine Catholics.)

Secondly, why would one encourage the people of the Church to do things non-canonically. [....Just bring a priest over from Italy and start having services.....] Is this the correct and canonical way to do things? Is the Latin Church only interested in "success." And measured by which standards - spiritual ones or secular ones?

Why are two parishes not enough for an eparchy? The Albanian Orthodox Archdiocese of America has but two parishes, right now. Similarly, the Belorussian Council has one to three parishes, as I recall. Both are under the Pat. or Constantinople.

The Bishops of Lungro and Piana degli Albanesi do not have territory, ergo are not diocesan bishops, but auxilliaries. Latins in their villages do not fall under them, as I understand it, but under the local Latin bishop. In effect, they have authority only over the property of their eparchies and their Greek Rite communicants. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Grottaferrata has territory. It is still an anomaly in that it is not a diocese, but a monastery.

Suppression of the Italo-Greek Rite in N. America was and is a fact. Let us look at the cause, not the symptoms of that suppression.

In Christ,
Andrew

PS: The property where Our Lady of Grace met was taken over under public domain for a highway that cut through the heart of the old community in Inwood. That's when the folks scattered to Staten Island.

Yes, they should get another building.

Andrew,

We went over this before. Eastern Catholic eparchies are both personal and territorial, they are for the faithful of a particular Church sui iuris and also have territorial limits. The bishops of said eparchies are in every respect equal to a Latin diocesan bishop. Their jurisdiction is ordinary and immediate. They rule their eparchy in their own name. The case is different with an exarchy in which the ordinary rules in the name of the Pope/Patriarch/Major Archbishop.

As for the Italo-Greeks/Albanians, The Eparchy of Lungro's territory is continental Italy excluding the small territory of the Exarchal Abbey. The Eparchy of Piana's territory is Sicily. Being directly subject to the Holy See does not make one an auxillary. Every Latin Metropolitan Archdiocese and Eastern Metropolitan Church sui iuris as well as certain Latin Archdioceses/Dioceses and Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris of eparchial status, i.e. the Ruysn(Mukachevo), Croatian, Slovak, Hungarian, and Italo-Greek/Albanian Byzantine Catholic Churches are all immedaitely subject to the Holy See.

Also, often one church is enough for an eparchy to be established. Many of the South American Eparchies/Exarchies have one to three parishes.

Fr. Deacon Lance

In a response to something I wrote I read, with amazement, the assertion that "The Bishops of Lungro and Piana degli Albanesi do not have territory". They most certainly do have territory. If anybody wants, I can probably obtain the exact definition of those two territories - in Italian.
As to the question of why I would advocate bringing a priest from Italy and holding services, the answer is simple: that is how it works. Lamenting that one wants it to work some other way accomplishes nothing. Also, of course, that provides the test of the seriousness of the US Italo-Greeks: PUT UP OR SHUT UP! Either they can, or they cannot, sustain such a venture.
Why has John de Meis not been ordained to the priesthood? How should I know? Is he qualified? I certainly don't know, nor is there any reason why I would know.
Are two parishes enough for an Exarchate? That depends in great part upon the two parishes. Why not ask them? I've never been to either one myself. But I do know that Rome is unlikely to create an Exarchate in a vacuum. I also know that there are Greek Catholic priests in the USA who went to school in Rome and therefore speak Italian. Ask these priests how many times they have been called upon to use that language for pastoral purposes in the USA.

Apologies to everyone - my computer cut me off in mid-post, with the result that what I wrote looks much harsher than I intended it to. [As has often been said, a computer is a gadget which combines the worst features of man and machine.]
What I wanted to say is that an Italo-Greek witness in North America should be welcome and deserves to be supported. Credibility, however, requires actual Italo-Greeks to appear and take up leadership in such a desirable endeavor.
Incognitus

Every time, I read this thread regarding the Italo-Greek Catholics, I look for the Very Reverend Father Archdeacon DeMies to weigh in. I have seen someof his posts here on the Forum in the past.

I first corresponded with Fr Archdeacon regarding some questions, last summer. I asked him about his background. And he told me that he was an Archdeacon, and was too old to go any further. He is a retired NYPD officer

Shlomo Byzantine Learner,
Also Archdeacon DeMies is volunteering some Itlo-Greek Catholic Books to help start an Eastern Catholic Library in the upper Mid-West.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Now matter how one turns it, it is still a sad story of suppression.

Regarding the dear Archdeacon John DeMeis: I would venture to say that when he was ordained a deacon twenty (?) years ago he was not too old to subsequently be ordained as a priest.

But he had a wife, or so I have been told.

Suppression of the Italo-Greek Rite in the US is a fact. I can't change that but I think that it is wise to recognize that it happened and to learn from it.

Organization of the Church comes from above, not below. The people have petitioned for a priest and even presented a candidate, so I understand it. Their requests have been denied.

Is the organization of the Church to be driven soley by money? Why not appoint a shepherd to feed the flock instead of expecting the flock to be well-fed (generous donors) in advance? Isn't that the model, that Christ first helps us to grow in the faith, then out of thanks we begin to give?

Perhaps this inverted attitude, "that if the people don't give, let the Church starve," is part of our serious and myriad problems here in North America.

In Christ,
Andrew