www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Italo-Greek Catholic Church

Get serious! the proper libation for Saint Patrick's Day is, of course, the best-quality Irish single malt (if you can't get any poitin).
Incognitus

I am quite serious. Only a real man would drink something he can't see through. Anathema sit.

Diak, by your definition, I am a real man.

This could be problematic, what with the two X chromosomes and all.

Of course, this would only be the latest in my confusion.

I am Italo-Greek Byzantine Catholic, even though I have neither Italian nor Greek in my ancestry, or Byzantine for that matter (except maybe waayyyyyy back on the Polish side. I understand that the Latin Rite was imposed on much of Byzantine Eastern Europe around the time the Byzantine Empire was in decline).

... not to mention the whole Eastern Rite Catholic under the Latin Patriarchate thing...

Dear Thea, so would my wife. She likes Guinness but prefers Beamish. I am the other way around. She is as Irish as Paddy's...

As far as background, she also claims her lineage since being married to me as "Carpatho-Irish".

Dear Thea Logica,

I thought that I would give you and your accomplices a day or two to recover from your lenten beverages... .......before asking you a few questions.

But seriously, welcome to the forum!

Please tell us the origin of the Italo-Greek Rite Byz Cath parish, Our Lady of Wisdom, in Las Vegas. I understand the original core to be Sicilian-Americans (Arberesh). Is that correct? Are they from New Orleans originally? Any connections with the folks on Staten Island at Our Lady of Grace?

If you've reviewed our discussion here, do you have anything to add? To correct?

The self-crowned defender of the Italo-Greek Rite yields the floor.

In Christ,
Andrew (the Albanian)

Dear Thea,

Yes, when you deal with Andrew, be careful not to knock that crown off . . .

Alex

Andrew-

Fr. Francis is a native New Yorker, so there may be a connection to Our Lady of Grace, I'm not really sure about that. The original congregation I believe was made up of Sicilians, which is Fr. Francis' background, at least on his mother's side.

OLOW started out as a mission, originally housed at St. Gabriel's Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church (although here in Vegas, we really don't pay much attention to the national distinctions). Then they moved to St. Joseph, Husband of Mary, which is a Latin Rite Church- they kindly let us use the hall for a period of time. The congregation was housed there when I first wandered in...

When SJHOM couldn't afford the extra insurance required to let us use the space anymore, we moved back to St. Gabriel's for a while, then rented a former window store, which then was leased out from under us, then a local business was kind enough to let us use their front office for a while (small, cramped, and actually kind of cozy, I actually have fond memories of it), then back to St. Gabriel's again, then into a small modular building that had actually been a small bank branch on the property where the church is now standing. We build a building which we're now using as the church, which is basically a multi-purpose building which will become the church hall when we get the actual church proper built.

One of Fr. Francis' great stories is that when he first got permission from the Latin and Byzantine bishops to start an Italo-Greek congregation, the people were mostly elderly and insisted that the liturgy should be celebrated in Greek. Fr. Francis was not thrilled with the prospect. He went to his mother for advice. "We can't do it in Greek. We'll lose the children if we do the liturgy in a language they don't understand". Mama Vivona told him, "Let them have their way and see what happens." So, he celebrated liturgy in Greek. After several months, these elderly Italo-Greeks came to him and said, "We should start celebrating the liturgy in English. We'll lose the children if we do the liturgy in a language they don't understand."

Vita Vivona was a very wise woman. It's a pity she died before I ever had a chance to meet her.

Thea,

Yes, Father Francis does have ties to Our Lady of Grace. He was, and I believe still is, listed on the Society's website as its Associate Chaplain

Our Lady of Grace Society [byzantines.net]

Thank you for your parish history. I'm impressed with the preserverance that got you folks to where you are.

And a Pole who acknowledges their Byzantine origins! (Before it starts, gang, I'm speaking of ethnic Poles, not the transplanted Ukrainians, etc., so save it, please.).

Krona pola,

Neil

The Italian American Heritage Society was very nice in contacting my family regarding my Albania trip two years ago. They like Italian-American Byzantine speakers, including the local half-Italian, half-Greek Orthodox priest.
My Mother's Family was from Sacco, Salerno. It is on the www.felitto.net [felitto.net] website, with only one small town being between it and Felitto (see St. Sylvester's in the Sacco slide show on the website). Felitto is the home of the annual and ancient Madonna of Constantinople Festa in September. Here there is a Felitto group in Pennsylvania.
Sunday, I'm off to Romania. Please pray for me.
Ciao.

There are some suppositions, that there were some Byzantine rite communities in the Eastern Slovakia (region of Spish), that had never broken the communio with Rome. There is a lack of historical documents regarding the matter, probably this were only some parishes without proper bishop.

andreios
Byzantine Catholics in Slovakia [grkat.nfo.sk]

Dear L.I.,

I agree with you. Infact, almost every Eastern Catholic Church has made the claim that at least part of their Church never broke Communion with Rome. Besides the fact that I've seen pretty good evidence to the contrary (even for Maronites), I'm not sure why this claim is so important to Eastern Catholics. I myself as an Armenian Catholic used to make it. Perhaps such a claim is seen to legitimize the Eastern Catholic position of communion with Rome and division with their Orthodox mother Churches? Perhaps it alleviates some feeling of guilt for their Church's historic objections to some of the positions taken by Rome? I don't know. Sometimes this reminds me of the way Fundamentalists claim that there were always Christians like them somewhere, hidding underground from the clutches of the paganized, institutionalized and established church. Of course this is a fairy tale. Some Eastern Catholics go further and boast that there is no parralel Orthodox Church to their Church, as do the Maronites. This also, I find problematic. Maybe some on this thread can explain why this is such a wide-spread claim amongst Eastern Catholics. Is it simply in the name of ecumenism and hoped for reconcilliation?

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. Ghazar Der-Ghazarian
Looys Kreesdosee
www.geocities.com/derghazar [geocities.com]

Dear Ghazar:

I've read that officially the Italo-Albanian and Maronite Churches are the only Eastern Catholic Churches that never broke communion with Rome. I doubt whether claims of constant communion with Rome by other Eastern Catholics are reflective of their Churches' official positions.

The legitimization of the Eastern Catholic Churches does not necessarily depend on these two Churches' constant unity with Rome. Had they too been out of communion with Rome and later restored like the rest of the Eastern Catholic Churches, then the Eastern Catholic position would still be legitimate.

We Eastern Catholics see ourselves as restoring the original unity which was broken by various early schisms. Unfortuanetly, not all of the East has been restored to this unity. Our mother Churches should have never broken that original unity in the first place, and so our position of having restored that original unity is quite a legitimate one.

After the restoration of our original unity with Rome, we lost some of our ancient traditions and replaced them with various Latin traditions. In recent times, the Popes have been telling us to recover our ancient traditions in order to reflect authentic Eastern Catholicism. This I would say is our second ongoing restoration which will take years to accomplish.

God bless,

Rony

Dear Rony,

Out of respect for our Lord's Sabbath rest in the Holy Sepulchre, let us refrain our dialogue. I'll write you back soon.

Have a blessed Pascha,
Ghazar

OK.

And a blessed Pascha to you as well.

God bless,

Rony