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At the present moment in the history of the Greek-Catholic people who inhabit the southern slopes of the Carpathians (how's that for a neutral expression?), one may notice, as Hritzko has remarked, that in Hungary they have been magyarized almost totally, and that in Slovakia the process of Slovakization is almost complete. The liturgical practice of these two communities has also suffered severely, and must be seen to be appreciated at its true significance.
The situation in Transcarpathia is rather different. The Church-Slavonic liturgical language and the Julian calendar remain in use, and the liturgical practice is quite conservative. Yet one notices that authorities, and in a significant degree the clergy and faithful, of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia in the USA, clearly regard the "Ukrainian threat" as far greater than either the Slovak threat or the Magyar threat. Now why would this be?
Incognitus

Maybe because it is more fun to get a rise out of the Ukrainians?

The almost total loss of Rusin ethnicity in Hungry and Slovakia serves to underscore why the forced assimilation of the Rusins into Ukrainians must be stopped. The losses are already too great.

I can�t speak for officialdom but it seems to me that, since the loss of authentic Rusin culture is almost total in Hungry and Slovakia, there may be nothing left to save or rekindle. Rusins living in the borders of Ukraine are the only ones who can preserve the Rusin ethnicity. There is still hope.

While the Ukrainians are not forcing assimilation onto the Rusins in the same evil way the Communists forced assimilation on the Ukrainians, I think Tim is correct in his observation that Ukrainians will not see the separate Rusin culture just like the Russians would not see the separate culture of the Ukrainians. One would think that, as much as the Ukrainians suffered, they would refrain from forcing their culture upon the people of another ethnic group.

You are close, but instead you should say "us Ukrainians".

Hritzko

The Magyar threat to Rusyn identity ended in 1918. Only a handful of villages that were historically Rusyn lie within modern-day Hungary. A couple of them maintain something of a Rusyn identity: Mucsony and Komloska.

The bottom line is that the governments of both Slovakia and Hungary (along with Poland and Serbia-Montenegro) formally recognize the distinct Rusyn ethnicity.

Only Ukraine, with the largest concentration of Rusyns, has denied their legal status. For example, Rusyn identity can't be declared on the Ukrainian census, while it can and is on the other countries.

In the 2001 census in Slovakia, there are were 24,201 people claiming Rusyn identity, vs. 10,814 claiming Ukrainian identity. There were 219,000 Greek Catholics and another 50,000 Orthodox in Slovakia, which gives a good handle on the ultimate Rusyn population of Slovakia.

In 1991, the first post-communist census in Slovakia, 14,000 registered themselves as Ukrainian, while 17,000 registered themselves as Rusyns. Some 50,000 people listed Rusyn as their mother tongue.

--tim

I thought that the SLOVAK SPECTATOR article about Ruthenian vs Ukrainian identity was a good synopsis of our discussion. Perhaps you should read it again:

Slovak Spectator Newspaper - article comparing Ukrainians with Ruthenians [slovakspectator.sk]

The only obvious error is that the auther stated that Ruthenian-Ukrainians used Slovak for liturgical services in the 16th century. They in fact used Church Slavonic and only converted to Slovak in the 1960's.

It would appear that even the people of Slovakia feel that the difference is not that great (if there really is any).

The Muscovites (Russians) and Ukrainians have fought each other with some real wopper of battles resulting in severe losses of and other casualties. The battle of Poltava in 1709 in which Ukrainian Kozak Hetman (leader)Ivan Mazeppa and the Sweedes lost tens of thousands of men would be a good example. The Russians then proceeded to kill every women and child they found at the Kozak's fortress 'Baturyn', resulting in thousands more deaths.

I could multiple the above events by endless different examples and the resulting number is in the millions of Ukrainian deaths at the hands of the Russian Imperials and Communists.

Can you name me one battle or event that caused a single death of a Carpatho-Rusyn (Ukrainian) on orders from a Christian Ukrainian Nationalist ?

BTW - the anwer is no, because the Ukrainian nationalists always tried to help the Carpatho-Rusyns establish themselves and their Free Rusyn state. For example, there many examples of Lviv's Metropolia supporting the religious activities of the Carpatho-Rusyns, including publishing rare religious manuscripts which were not available to the Carpathian-Rusyns.

Ukraine is nothing more than a unified group of Ruthenian cultural groups, with other minorities such as Russians, Poles, Romanians, Jews, and other distinct groups. There is no historical evidence to prove that the Rusyns of the Carpathians are anything more than a Ruthenian cultural group which is an integral part of the Ukrainian majority. There is no past history of independance as a distinct group. There is even plenty of evidence that the Union of Uzhorod was inspired by a want to be part of the other Ruthenian groups North of the Carpathians (ie: now the unified group known as the Ukrainians).

Polical Ruthenism is being orchestrated by neighboring countries to attempt to annex Ukraine's Subcarpathian territory.

If you are going to make accussations, substantiate them with specific neutral party facts, not more 'USA Byzantine Metropolia circa 1971 fictitious propaganda'. You have been repeating the same unsubstantiated propaganda, even after I have proven to you that even some of the toughest critics of Ukraine think that the country is a "model of ethinic tolerance" and have proclaimed this to the world. There have been numerous other publications and reports which substantiated these claims.

Hritzko

PS: Iconophile - Can I get a copy of that 1971 book you mentioned earlier or a ISBN number ?

Hritzko,

You have proven nothing. The sources you have quoted are not reliable and the Ukrainian ones you have used are biased towards the Ukrainians. You have even rejected the testimony of people who live in Mukachevo / Uzhorod who do not consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainians.

I pray that the Rusins living in the current borders of Ukraine will reject the attempts of assimilation that people like you wish to inflict upon them.

Admin

There's a long history of this kind of chauvinism in Slavic Europe. The Macedonians are a good example.

Bulgarian nationalists say Macedonians are merely West Bulgarians. Serbian nationalists say they're just South Serbs. The Greeks say Macedonia is a Greek geographic entity that can't be usurped by these Slavs.

But there they are, stuck with the unwieldly name "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia," existing anyway as a distinct people.

The Carpatho-Rusyns have not expressed any desire for an independent state, just a recognition of their distinct identity within the four states their homeland straddles. And they've got it in three out of the four.

--Tim Cuprisin

Tim writes that "The Magyar threat to Rusyn identity ended in 1918." Excuse me? The entire Exarchate of Miskolc was created specifically for those Greek-Catholics in Hungary who wanted to retain a Slav identity. That identity has vanished now, but it was certainly there in 1918.
Incognitus

As I said earlier, Mucsony and Komloska continue to express a Rusyn identity. The exarchate was erected for 21 Rusyn parishes that had been part of the Presov Diocese. That means a good 90% are completely gone.

But they were islands of Rusyn language in a vast Magyar sea. The miracle is that anything of a Rusyn character has survived through the 86 years since the collapse of Austria-Hungary.

It wasn't a specific Magyar threat that did in those 19 parishes, but rather, natural historical processes. I wouldn't expect remote ethnic outposts to survive, especially after what that region has been through in the last century.

Today, Hungary has one of the most enlightened minority policies in Central Europe, which bodes well for that tiny pocket of Rusyn identity.

--tim

As I understand, ethnic minorities often have trouble with the Ukrainian governments. A case in point is the Bulgarian minority which I believe has been forbidden to teach in Bulgarian and relations with the Bulgarian Church (i.e. visitations) are almost non-existent due to government interference.

If you want to look at a stable multiethnic Slav nation, look to Bulgaria. Despite the idiotic policy of the falling Communists towards the Turks, all the minorities are well integrated within society; though I will admit that the Roma situation needs to improve. But as for the rest, well I am thankful Bulgaria in a leading light in greater understanding (but historically Bulgaria has always been a welcoming country).

Anton

Clearly you are well aware of the issues surrounding the establishment of the Carpatho-Ukrainian nation.

The fact that the Ruthenian American communittee or the Byzantine American Church has not spoken out about the brutal Hungarian invasion of 1938 of Carpatho-Ukraine(Rus), the destruction of their short lived republic, the killing of Ruthenian-Ukrainian peoples, and the five brutal years of facist Iron Cross rule is perhaps not significant in your opinion.

You consistently ignore the fact that the USA Ruthenian Metropolia abandoned it's brothers and sisters in their time of need. You also consistently ignore the fact that the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic bishops of Prajshiv (Presov) and Mukachevo fully supported the establishment of a Carpatho-Ukrainian Republic with a Greek-Catholic Monsignor as it's president. The Carpatho-Rusyns chose to become Carpatho-Ukrainians as did many of the dozens of other Ruthenian Subgroups.

Further, Slovakia is just as aware as Ukraine is of the ongoing politics of the Hungarians to annex as much former Empire lands as possible. Promoting 'Political Ruthenism' which will eventually gravitate towards the Magyar variant in combination with Hungarian separatism is Hungarian Professor's strategy for expanding the current borders of his nation (ie: new larger Hungarian empire .

They have been completely assimmilated into the Hungarian culture. Therefore, Hungary can't serve as an example of ethnic tolerance or promotion. Keep that in mind when you remind us that a couple of hundred young Hugarians are learning basic 'Hungarian codified Rusyn' as a second language.

We have already discussed Political Ruthenism. The Slovak Spectator article discusses the issue quite well with the Ruthenian they interviewed.

Basically, each country surrounding the Carpathian mountains has 'codified' various forms fo the Slavic 'languages' used by the peoples to help to either assimmilate them into their larger cultures and/or attempt to annex lands which they currently do not control. The political goals of codifying the 'languages' is NOT to unify the people but to assimmilate them and/or annex territories currently not under dominanting coutries control

The fact that Hungarians are teaching their variant of 'Rusyn' to a few hundred children after generation of forced assimmilation would be a good indication of their intentions using this as a political means for the re-annexation of Subcarpathian Ukraine where there is a large Hungarian minority (densely packed).

The Poles have codified a variant of Carpatho-Rusyn which the majority of Lemkos do no approve of. To the Poles this is but an archaic variant of their own language, which over time will become more like their language.

The vast majority of Lemkos consider modern Ukrainian to be their language and have made this known to the EU and Poland.

The few Lemkos who have been able to return to the Carpathians do not dare speak out in favour of the standardized Ruthenian language called Ukrainian. If they do, they will be made to feel very umwelcomed (ie; Remember how the Poles expelled a couple of hundred thousand of them the first time ?). They were deported from their ancestral Carpathian homeland in the hundreds of thousands because of their sympathies for Ukrainian statehood.

If you look at the Lemko 'Vatra' pictures (annual gathering in the Polish Carpathians) on Lemko.org, you will notice the blue & yellow flag in the background (the Ukrainian national). This should give a good clue about how they feel about the 'Polish variant' of the 'Rusyn' language they codified. The EU is well aware of this.

There are more than 30 different Ruthenian groups in Ukraine which has adopted for unification purposes the name of the region in which the largest group of them lived. It perhaps makes sense in Slovakia, Poland, or other neighbooring countries to ask about Rusyns, but not in Ukraine which is a collection of Ruthenians. Much like the United States no longer considers Virginians, or Carolinians, or other regions of the country to be separate American peoples, so does Ukraine with it's various Ruthenian subgroups. Yes there are also some Texans who think they do not belong to the USA, but they are Americans and part of the Union whether they like it or not.

The EU is consious of the facts I mentioned above and it understand the goals of 'Political Ruthenism' and for this reason does not act on any false allegations.

Futher the Slovak Spectator article discusses the issue of Political Ruthenism quite well. The article is very fair in assesment of the current situation, but does not touch on the very painfull fact that most Ruthenians-Ukrainians have been completely assimmilated into Slovak culture. The Ruthenian being interviewed for this newspaper has clearly admited that the only thing the Rusyn languages have in common is the word 'Rusyn'. He freely admits that they are not the same languages. The are not the same languages because of Political Ruthenism on the part of non-Rusyn speaking majorities who are trying to destroy the Rusyn identity.

Hrizko

"If the Slovak Latin bishops had not illegaly appointed Slovakphile-Latinphile bishops to replace the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic bishops, (essentially usurping power from the Ruthenian-Ukrainian bishops) the statistics may have been much more encouraging in Slovakia today."

The Pope appointed Bishop Jan Hirka administrator then bishop of Presov not Slovak Latin bishops.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Of course that's correct. And while the Greek Catholic Church has been Slovak-ized, especially since it was returned to legal status in 1968, the census numbers demonstrate that more people are expressing a Rusyn identity in Slovakia and fewer are expressing a Ukrainian identity than did just after the collapse of the communist regime.

The thing that has changed since the fall of communism is not the Slovakicizing influence of the Greek Catholic hierarchy.

What has changed is the lack of a regime that supresses Rusyn identity and promotes the Ukrainian identity. The current government is pretty neutral, and provides limited financial aid to both Ukrainophile and Rusynophile cultural organizations.

--tim

This is the exact same logic the Russians used to justify the forced assimilation of the Ukrainians. The Russians refused to recognize what they considered to be the �Little Russian� subgroups of Ukrainians and others. Now Ukraine (the �borderland� of Muscovy) is refusing to recognize the ethnic minorities within its borders. Same crime, different perpetrator.

One could easily rework Hritzko�s paragraph from the Russian perspective to see if he still supports his own logic:

There are more than 50 different Russian groups from Uzgorod to Vladivlastok, which has adopted for unification purposes the name of the region in which the largest group of them live (Russia). It perhaps makes sense Slovakia, Poland or other neighboring countries to ask about Ukrainian, but not in Russia, which is a collection of Russians. Much like the United States no longer considers Virginians, or Carolinians, or other regions of the country to be separate American peoples, so does Russian with its various Russian subgroups. Yes there are also some Ukrainians who think they do not belong to Russia, but they are Russians and part of the Union whether they like it or not.

Hritzko�s logic is flawed and must be rejected.