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Again, always good to find some common ground. You're absolutely right on the first point, assimilation is a hard trend to reverse.

But the teaching of the Ukrainian language isn't exactly a growth industry without a Communist regime only offering Rusyns the option of learning literary Ukrainian, instead of their native Rusyn language.

--tim

Dear Administrator,

In spite of my many requests for evidence of "crimes" you are unable to provide any proof. As a moderator of a forum, you should provide intelligent arguments or correct what you perceive to be errors of facts (or perhaps errors of interpretation).

Russia was an Empire long before the Soviet Union came into existance. It engaged in brutal Imperial policies including the complete banning of the Ukrainian language in print, education, religious, media, or other commonly used forms.

Ukraine is a modern 'Ruthenian Nation' which has never been an empire. The Ruthenian groups of Ukraine use a 'standardized' form of the language, which is perfectly understandable to anyone who speaks what you call 'Rusyn'. Any other sub-groups who wishes to use other forms of the language are free to do so in Ukraine, but they can't expect the government to promote or fund it as the standard.

Further, 10,000 people claiming a separate 'Rusyn' ethnicity in Slovakia and codifying what they perceive to be a language for 2,000 school age children does not constitute a separate nation for 99.99% of the world's linguists and sociologists. You have the right to believe that the situation is different, but I have more than earned my right to have a different opion without being accused of brutal Imperialism.

Also, I reviewed all of my old files during the activism years leading up to the fall of Communism, and I have been unable to find anywhere evidence of a separate 'Rusyn' nation. The United States government, in addition to many other western democracies have comprehensive government files on what they call: 'Captive Nations'.

Some countries were represented as a unified group, or a combination of federation and separate states. For example: the Yugoslavs were represented as a unified group, and separate 'nations'.

However there is plenty of evidence that the Lemkos, Hutsuls, Boyks and other Carpatho-Ukrainian groups worked with us as a unified group known as Ukrainians and never claimed separate status. They all consider themselves to be 'Carpatho-Ukrainians' or just plain 'Ukrainians'. Again, there is no evidence of any separate 'Rusyn' nation in any of the massive archives generated over the years.

Unless you have some type of proof of Ukainian government "crimes", you should refrain from inciting hatred - after all this is a Christian Catholic forum. At very least - show some adult maturity.

Hritzko

Dear Incognitus,

I'm sure Tim has the complete words to this most famous of all Rusyn poems . Perhaps he would be so kind as to post them.

But unless the administrator takes a vacation, even I'm not ready to tell them what it means .

This sounds like a very interesting book. Is the author Italian ?

Hritzko

My daddy told me not to call people names. And I don't know if that one has been in common use since the religious conflicts of the 1930s.

I'll stick with the official verses of Alexander Dukhnovych's "Vrucanie," the anthem of the vast Rusyn-wing conspiracy.

Here's one place you can find the words and a translation:

http://www.iarelative.com/shop/rusyn.htm

--tim

Dear DJS,

Thanks for the post. 'Lemko.org' does try to be as inclusive and understanding as possible in regards to defining it's members identity. You will notice that the majority of this groups members consider themselves to be Lemko first, but part of the unified Ruthenian group known as Ukrainians.

Believe it or not, Galicians-Rusyns were just as torn between different empires and/or nations.

Th Rusyn Greek-Catholic heritage of the mother of the Holy Father was lost (or was it ) within the larger Roman Catholic rite when she moved from East (Ukrainian) to West Galicia (Polish).

Metropolitan Andrej Sheptytsky of the UGCC was born to completely Polonized Rusyn parents who were Polish arristocrats (he was born a count), yet he returned to the people who needed him most; the unified Ruthenians or Ukrainians.

Hritzko

Dear Orthoman,

Thank you for your insight.

Actually, relatively speaking we get along very well. The main issue is not so much related to churches, but more about ethnicity.

What perhaps unified us most in the last century was the destruction of our Greek-Catholic Churches on orders from Moscow.

Perhaps it may be more than we should expect, but we are still waiting for an apology from the Patriarch of the Mucovite's Orthodox Church. At very least he should stop conspiring in the cover-up of this crime.

Hritzko

Christian,

The Soviet's accused the Ukrainians (and other ethnic groups) of 'Bourgeousie Nationalism'.

Ukrainian Nationalits supported the establishment of a social Christian state, with freedom of religion, freedom of expression and travel, and all other values that Western democracies uphold. For this the Soviets killed and imprisoned millions of them.

The Soviets never denied the existance of a separate Ukrainian ethnic group. They even insisted that it be given a seat at the United Nations when that organization was formed.

Hritzko

Hritzko,

I read the entire article and only found this:

"The church in present day Slovakia, while heavily persecuted after World War II, fared slightly better than that of the Transcarpathian Oblast of Ukraine and also in Galicia, in that the church was allowed to function to an extent, after the Prague Spring of 1968. Bishop Hopko, however, the auxiliary to Bishop Gojdich, released from prison and initially under house arrest, was never allowed to assume the role of Ordinary of the Prjashiv Eparchy, and the administration was given over to the present Bishop of Presov, Jan Hirka, who followed a more Slovakized platform for the church. The role of the Holy See in these decisions was certainly not without attention to the political situations of the time."

Could you post the Slovak appointed administrator to whom you are refering?

I would also point out another error in the article:

"These churches promote the "Slovak" identity among their people, who can not possibly be actual ethnic Slovaks, because of, among other things, their various Carpatho-Rusyn linguistic dialects of Ukrainian, which are much different from the Slovak language, and their religious affiliation as Eastern Rite Christians."

It appears that Archbishop Michael is unaware that just as in Hungary Calvinist Magyars joined the Catholic Church as Byzantines so did Lutheran Slovaks. So their are actual Hungarian and Slovak Byzantine Catholics. My Greek Catholic ancestors were with out a doubt Slovaks as evindenced by their surname-Letavic, their hometown-Bardejov, and their language-Slovak. Please note that in stating this I am not denying that Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholics in Hungary and Slovakia have undergone Magyarization and Slovakization. but some Greek Catholics are truly Magyar or Slovak.

Fr. Deacon Lance

thanks for the web sites - I particularly enjoyed the Fedor Vico cartoons (someone should publish a book of them). But I'm still waiting for all the words to "Ja kacap byl'"
Good to know that my arrow has struck the target - and yes, the word "kacap" is still around and one can hear it used occasionally.
If anyone else shares my depraved taste for off-beat versions of this and that, I have all five verses to the Imperial Austrian Anthem - in whatever one cares to call the language that whatever one cares to call "Those People" were speaking a hundred years ago.
I hasten to add that my interest in these matters is stimulated by the study of linguistics and folklore, and has nothing in particular to do with my own religious world-view (I'm a Greek Catholic, and while the Carpathian Mountains are lovely if the weather is good, I have not the faintest desire to live there. Last time I was in Uzhhorod, there was no need to argue over anyone's ethnic self-perception; they couldn't even agree on what time zone they were in - and no, I am not making that up).
Just to help Tim along, I should remark that the word "kacap" does not necessarily have anything to do with the celibacy issue, nor even whether one is Greek Catholic or Eastern Orthodox (or Muslim, for that matter).
Incognitus

Here's an "alternative" Ukrainian-language site that offers a definition:
http://www.notam02.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/Ukrainian.1.html

But that's not the usage I'm aware of in the Rusyn-American community, circa the pre-World War II religious wars, when it referred to the beards sported by Orthodox priests (Greek Catholic priests by then were clean shaven).

In that usage, it's an anti-Orthodox slur.

--tim

Dear Hritzko,

Thanks for your post. I�m sure that you understand that all crimes do not consist of physical violence. I have clearly stated that the techniques the Ukrainians are using towards the Rusins are not ones of violence but ones of simple denial of existence and the forced assimilation that results from it. You have claimed that Rusins are really Ukrainians but have conveniently ignored the opinions of scholars and Rusins who actually live in Transcarpathia (not to mention avoidance of any discussion of how your logic is identical to the Russian logic that Ukrainians are really happy little Russians). You simply ignore evidence that disagrees with your opinion. That�s never good.

If you actually believe the position that you have put forth (that Carpatho-Rusins are not a separate ethnicity) and, if you believe that the people of Transcarpathia are happy embracing the Ukrainian ethnicity, then none of us really exist and you have no one to argue with. Ah � but there�s the rub. The majority of people who live in Transcarpathia do not consider themselves to be ethnic Ukrainians. They just happen to be stuck inside the current borders. I�ve met some of them them and I�ve talked with them. They include some of my relatives. You will have to convince all of them that they are really Ukrainian. You can�t just pretend they don�t hold opinions contrary to your own. They exist.

Excessive nationalism is wrong. If you put as much time into following and witnessing Jesus Christ and teaching Ukrainians to do the same you could really turn Ukraine into a country worth admiring and emulating.

Admin

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Just take a look at the globe. Do you see any Ruthenians there, no you don't. We keep telling you, Ruthenians don't exist in this world.

Tim,

For the record, you could not be more wrong.

Hritzko

Dear Deacon Lance,

Growing up in Montreal the Ukrainians and Slovaks got along famously. In fact, my mother almost married one. Most Slovaks use the numerous Ukrainian bands for their wedding receptions. The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church supplied the Slovaks with a priests for decades because they did not have one of their own. When the Holy Father came to bless the corner stone of the New Slovak Cathedral in Toronto, the Ukrainian Youth Association sent their 75 member band and 140 combined choir members to perform for the papal event which was watched live on TV by millions of people accross Canada and the Northern USA states.

There have never been anything but very warm and friendly relations between the two groups. In Canada, the 'Rusyns' assimmilated more into the Ukrainian communittee than the Slovak. It is my impression that it is the opposite situation in the United States.

In Europe, Slovaks did join the Greek-Cataholic Church (in small numbers relative to the Ruthenians). These people were known as Rusnaks (was there not some guy in Maryland by that name who was charged with massive financial fraud last year ? ). What the exact ethnic mix was between Ruthenians and Slovaks in the Greek-Catholic Church I can't say for sure.

What I do know is the following:

The bishops of Prajshiv (Presov) and Mukachevo were both disturbed about the alarming Slovakization &/or Latinization of their Ruthenian-Greek Catholic rite church during the interwar period.

Both bishops felt that their church was primarily Ruthenian-Ukainian and that something had to be done to stop the Latinization & Slovakization of their church which was largely based in Subcarpathian-Rus. That is why they declared themselves to be Ukainians and fully supported the establishment of a Carpatho-Ukrainian nation. This is well documented.

After World War 2 (1950) there were about 290 Greek-Catholic Churches with an estimated 200,000 members in the truncated Czechoslovakia Republic. There were also about 290 Ukrainian schools just after the war - this ratio was no coincidence. It is also estimated that there were an additional 40,000 Orthodox in (some) these same towns who were Ruthenian-Ukrainian. They merged into one new 'commie' Orthodox Church.

In 1968 when they emerged from the 'commie Orthodox Church' roughly 2/3 rds (205 / 292) original Greek-Catholic Churches moved to Slovak liturgy which rapidly increased Slovakization of the Ruthenian-Ukrainians. There can be little doubt that this single event paved the way for a rapid decline in of Ruthenian-Ukrainian ethnicity.

Today, in Slovakia there are about 27 combined Ukrainian-Ruthenian schools with about 34,000 people who claim either ethnicity. There are perhaps another 8,000 in the Czech Republic (mostly older people) with no schools.

Clearly, the Ukrainian-Ruthenians made up the majority share of the Greek-Catholic Church just after the war, but today make up a small fragement due to the generations of assimmilation.

There is good news. There has been a large immigration of new Ukrainians to both Slovakia and the Czech Republic which have swelled the Orthodox and Greek-Catholic churches in both Prague and Bratislava and surrounding areas. The numbers are in the hundred of thousands but they are mostly not counted because of their temporary or illegal work status. Most consider themselves to be Orthodox but consider Greek-Catholicism as a sister church. The situation is being normalized.

Hritzko

DJS,

My point is that since WW2 there were over two full generations of activism related to 'Captive Nations' in Eastern Europe. Representatives of various 'Captive Nations' were meeting regularly to discuss collaboration on liberation strategies. It was intense, hard work, and in the end produced results. We liberated the United Ruthenian group called Ukraine.

Where where the 'Rusyns' as a group ?

Hritzko