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Tim,

Of the 269,000 Christians people you have posted, only 34,000 (17%) are Ruthenians-Ukrainians. If you do a further analysis you rapidly come to the conclusion that only about 10,000 (4%) are Rusyn (without being pro-Ukrainian), and about 24,000 are in fact 'Ukrainians' or 'Pro-Ukrainian Rusyns'. In fact there has been an increase in the number of people identifying themselves as Rusyn in Slovakia, but over half also consider themselves to be Ukrainian.

The statistics you posted can be condensed as follows;

Rusyns (1991 - 2001)
17,000 to 24,000 = + 7,000 (+41%)

Ukrainians (1191 - 2001)
13,000 to 11,000 = - 2,000 (-15%)

It would appear that since the original Slovak census of 1991, there has been an increase in the number of people who identify themselves as Rusyn, and a reduction of those who identify as Ukrainian. This of course to you is 'proof' that More Slovaks are taking on the 'Rusyn' identity and not the Ukrainian one.

However, if you were to read the 'Slovak Spectator' article again, you will notice that there 17 Ukrainian schools and only 10 Rusyn. In fact government statistics wills support this finding that even the majority of Slovak Rusyns attend Ukrainian Schools, hence why there are more than the Rusyn type. The pro-Ukrainian Rusyns and the Ukrainians attend the same schools. It is a minority of Rusyns wo attend Rusyn only Schools (ie: they are a minority within a minority even in Slovakia).

The Slovak Spectator newspaper article makes reference to the fact that this can't continue because of the fact no government can at a reasonable cost provide adequate educational materials beyond the first few grades for national sub-groups, and peoples who perceive themselves to be 'mini-ethnic' minorities. The Slovak pro-Ukrainian Rusyns have come to understand that they their children have their best chances of retaining their language by attending Ukrainian schools, even in Slovakia. The article makes reference to this as being the future, there will be no choice.

To develop educational materials fitting for the 21st century, schools need the financial resources of millions of people. I grew up in Quebec which has over 6,500,000 French speaking people and they are battling the 'sea of English' surrounding them. Their primary and secondary educational systems are struggling, and only survive because of the financial resources they are afforded by the federal government (English taxpayers of Canada). At the college and University levels they must be fluent in English - period. Modern media, sports, pop culture, and a variety of other surrounding forces make it very difficult for them to retain a distinct culture.

The tens of thousand of the USA's French speaking 'Cajun' (Acadians originally from what is now Nova Scotia, Canada) use text books from Ontario, Canada because that province has mastered teaching 'French as a second language'. The USA states that teach French to 'Cajuns' could never afford the cost of publishing their own books and therefore uses those published in Canada. It should be noted that they do not use Acadian French (now mostly in New Brunswick to where they were deported and now live in their language) but 'Quebecois' which is a form of standartized North American French.

If you think that teaching French in North America is an expensive affair that few governments can afford, try teaching Ukrainian. Before independance, every single Ukrainian communittee accross North America was on a perpetual fundraising drive to generate the money necessary to publish Ukrainian language teaching books, pay for school rentals and teachers salaries, and all the other endless hidden costs associated with Saturday Schools. If were not for a few benefactors, even the full time Ukrainian schools would have had difficulties surviving.

I, like every other Ukrainian-Canadian child I knew, sreamed and cried every time my parents told us we had to go to Ukrainian School on Saturday. About five years ago, my sibblings and I had a special evening for them to thank them for the large sacrifices they made to give us this 'special gift' of 'Ukrainian Saturday Schools'. It took us that long (and a few children of our own) to fully understand their combined efforts.

I managed to learn English on my own by reading comic books ( & everthing else that is interesting on the streets ), and granted it's not perfect I still manage to make a six figure income.

Now, tell me how 10,000 Rusyn speaking only peoples in Slovakia are going to develop their educational system, or even those who (may or may not) be in Ukraine ?

OOOPSS - It's not 10,000 Rusyns in Slovakia, but their children. So how are 2,000 children, (o.k. ! o.k. let's assume they are Catholic families) - make that 5,000 children supose to get an adequate school education ? Where do the resources come from ? Are they doomed to a second class education ? etc....

Due to generations of viscious Russification in Ukraine, the languae has been struggling for it's linguistic survival just like Quebec's French is. The Ukrainian language is an average of all the Ruthenian groups which it comprises. No one group will be perfectly happy, and at the same time, the government can't be expected to fund each group. Unless there is oil under Kyiv, it just will not happen.

Every Rusyn group of Ukraine is permitted to linguistic autonomy, but must use the standard for business, education, communications, and other national reasons. These are the same laws as in Quebec (must use standard French) and the USA (use American English).

Ten years ago, only 51% of the schools in Ukraine were Ukrainian and each old empire (Poland, Russia, and Hungary) was attempting to decrease this further for political purposes. Today 76% of schools in Ukraine are in Ukrainian, and the large Russian minority (20%) in Ukraine is being encouraged to accept Ukrainian proficiency as a high school graduation requirement. They are believe it or not !.

Within a few years, Ukraine will have the rich ecucational materials it needs to support the renewal of Ukrainian in Slovakia. Then Tim, you will see a true renaissance of Carpatho-Ukrainian culture.

Hritzko

For the record, I just checked, and, in fact, I do exist. Therefore, there is at least one Rusyn in the world and that's a start.

In the past 10 years, thousands of Rusyn-Americans have come to understand their confusing heritage, along with tens of thousands of Rusyns in an ancestral homeland without Communist regimes defining national identity in Marxist-Leninist terms.

The future remains cloudy, but at least there's a chance of survival of our people as a distinct group.

If the biggest threat to our existence is these really long posts full of didactic language about the satanic Latino-Slovakarian-Magyaronian-Baloneyan conspiracy to deny the gospel truth that Rusyns are just Ukrainians who don't know any better, then I think we'll be all right.

--tim

[Linked Image]

What kind of a Ruthenian are you, man? Such nationality does not even exist.
Don't you understand that you are a Ukrainian? You understand Slovak, don't you? - Fedor Vico

[Linked Image]
Be proud of being a Slovak, you crazy Ruthenian! - Fedor Vico

http://www.lemko.org/rusyn/vico/

Dear Administrator,

I'm not God, but I thought I would write this little poem anyways:

Oh come into the arms of 'Mother Ukraine',
See how the Slavs of Carpatho-Rus prosper,
You are our long lost Carpatho-Ukraine
Our efforts for brotherhood will foster

Hritzko

I find this whole conversation amazing! It seems that the same people that are in here crying about those big bad Moscovites trying to assimilate them and destroy their Ukrainian identity are also in here defending the same thing being done by them to those of us who identify as Lemko's, Carpatho Russians (Rusyns), etc.!

Excuse my honesty once more, but to be honest, there is one thing I have learned lurking in here for the last year or so. And it's that as a person who identifies a Lemko ancestory (along with Polish & Croatian) and an Orthodox Catholic, I definitely have more in common with those who call themselves Byzantine Catholics or Melkite Catholics. Because I'm beginning to wonder if what is identified as Ukrainian Catholicism is really a religion anymore.

OrthoMan

Anton,

If you can provide a source to confirm that statement I would very much appreciate it.

From my understanding, the Ukrainian government pretty much lets any church leader into the country unless they are expected:

(1) Incite hatred among the people

or

(2) Be a cause for concern for the safety of the people of Ukraine (example: Jim Jones type of character)

I look forward to your response.

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko,

The Russians among us will rewrite your poem. I hope you respect that version, too:

Oh come into the arms of 'Mother Russia',
See how the Slavs of Ukraine prosper,
You are our long lost Little Russians
Our efforts for brotherhood will foster.

Admin

Tim,

It's not about chauvenism, it's about reality !.

When I was 6 years old, my parents took me to 'Ukainian Day' at EXPO 67 in Montreal. This World Fair was held in conjunction with Canada's 'Centennial of Conferation'. It was the largest world's fair ever. Millions of average people, and many well known world leaders came to see la creme de la creme of human civilzation.

There were no less than 1000 young Ukrainian children and teenagers on that particular day marching in a variety of national costumes (including Carpathian) and youth group uniformes, and many more adults. We marched of the Soviet pavillion and began what turned out to be hours of demonstrating for human rights and freedom in Ukraine (including religion). My father told me to hold my 7 year old brother's hand and go with the other hundreds of young children and teenagers who were demonstrating for the freedom of Ukraine and it's people.

That was the first time, but not the last time that I demonstrated and did all possible to make the dire predicament of Ukraine known to the world. Our goals have always been to create a pluralistic integral society, with freedom of religion (ie: the re-establishment of the native churches), unrestricted travel, social-capitalism, and basically everything we have here in North America.

In all my years of working on various projects to bring freedom to the captive nations, I worked very well with many national groups including: Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Germans, Romanians, CZECHS, SLOVAKS, Belarus, Koreans, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Yugoslavs - but also separately CROATIANS, SERBIANS, MACEDONIANS, SLOVENES. The Ukrainians as a group seemed to lead the largest anti-communist group known as ABBN.

My whole life was spent promoting the establishments of a nation which would be based on a constitution which would guarantee the essential rights and priveleges of any modern nation I did this in the name of all Ukrainians, including those who were in the Carpathian mountains.

I never once in my many years of hard work remember anyone from the Byzantine USA community telling me not to do this in the name of the Carpathian Rusyns, or that they were a separate peoples. Further, I do not ever remember anyone from a 'Rusyn Nationality' particpate in any of the demonstrations or other activities in which we organized. Even the Albanians, Bosnians, and sometimes the occassion 'Tatar' showed up.

I think you have to start being honest with your communittee and ask some tough questions. 'Introspection' is the key word.

Start with:

(1) What have we as a Rusyn community done over the years to truly make people think we are a Nation ?

(2) How much of my 'Rusyn nation', is also someone elses nation ? (recognized as being other peoples nation)

(3) How much of our assimmilation and loss of self-identity here in North American is due to insuficient critical mass of people and money it takes to generate 'national' momentum ? (remember, only in North America are you a separate group - and one which came over a hundred years ago to this continent).

(4) How much has the world changed, and are our demand realistic ?

Are you sure it's chauvenism on the part of Ukrainians, or perhaps just an overblown idea of self importance relative to the rest of Eastern Europe.

The raw materials that Hungarian Professor used to generate a book about Carpatho-Rusyns, was mostly paid for by the Ukrainian North American communittee through variuous benafactors. They donated millions of dollars over the generations to various universities in the name of Ukrainian scholarship. Although President Voloshyn was tortured to death by the Soviets, his legacy lived on in many University foundations.

Carpatho-Rusyns are my brothers and they can promote and defend their culture in Ukraine, our arms are open wide to help them, here and there. Do not however ask the government to promote one Ruthenian group over another. Would the USA favour Massachusetts over New Jersey ?

Hritzko

The really stunning thing about this discussion is that it has nothing whatever to do with Romania enticing tourists to visit churches. But never mind.
I suggest a careful re-read of Paul Robert Magocsi's book "Our People" - the first edition. While on the conscious level his writing strongly supports the "Carpatho-Rusyn" outlook, now and then the subconscious level seeps through into the light of day. MOST interesting.
As to the bAttle of the Verses, here's a contribution:
Ja kacap byl', jesm' i budu,
Ja rodilsia kacapom . . .

No, I didn't make it up - I'm no poet, not even on the level of doggerel. But there are several verses to the thing. If anybody has them all, it would be fun to make them available.
Incognitus

Well, finally I can agree with you. It's all about critical mass and money. As I've said before, as cloudy as things are, the establishment of democratic governments in the ancestral Rusyn homeland is a start.

Once Ukrainians join the rest of these governments in recognizing the distinct Rusyn identity, it's up to Rusyns, both in the diaspora and, especially, in the homeland, to do the rest.

--tim

Tim,

Yes they have and they have a 'Russian orientation' and would have no problems call uncle Joe for a visit. These groups exist all over the former Soviet Union and in many cases are well funded by Moscow. They are small groups of 'businessmen' which make a living from this type of stuff.

You may also be surprised to know that there are Galicians who refer to themselves as Rusyns. It didn't end when the Popes mother left for Krakow.

You may also be surprised to know that there are true Orthodox Rusyn believers in Bukovyna, Krym (Crimea) and other regions of Ukraine. Why are they excluded from your nation, while 10,000 Rusyns from Priashiv included, while another 14,000 Rusyns from Priashiv are excluded, and .....

Hritzko

For the record, "Uncle Joe" Stalin died 51 years ago. Again with the Russo-Romano-Slovako-Bolsheviko-Magyarific conspiracy theories.

And, for the record, Russia can't afford to fund much of anything domestically, and it has little ability to influence events outside its borders.

--tim

Isn't this exactly the same charge the Soviet Communist laid against any Nationalist among the opressed peoples of the USSR, among them those who were speaking "Southern Russian Peasent dialect"??

Christian

Dear Fr. Deacon Lance,

I was not referring to Bishop Jan Hirka. I was speaking about the post World War 2 era in Czechoslovakia.

Please see this link for complete details:

Slovakization / Latinization of the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Church in Slovakia after WW2 [uaoc.org]

Hritzko

It is encouraging to see a marginal increase in the number Slovakians who identify themselves as 'Rusyn'. At the same time, the majority of them are freely opting to send their children to Ukrainian schools since they believe that this is the 'modern standardized Rusyn language'. The Communists are not forcing them to do this, they are just dealing with reality.

The many Ruthenians who have been assimmilated into Slovak culture will probably never fully return to their roots. However, as Ukraine's importance grows as a trading partner with it's eventual entry into the EU, so will the desire to learn Ukrainian as a 'second language' in Slovakia.

Hritzko.