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Tim,

My parents are not Communist yet I was able to learn Ukrainian here in North America, as did thousands of other American and Canadian children.

Why didn't the Rusyns pay more attention to teaching the language to their youth here on this continent ? Did the Communists stop them ?

Why is it that so many more Ukrainians can converse in the language of their ancestors as compared to 'Rusyns' here in North America ? Did the Communists help us learn and stop your people ?

Why can't the Metropolitan of the American Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church speak 'Rusyn' ? Did the Communists stop him from learning his native language ?

Why can the Metropolitan of the UGCC in the USA speak Ukrainian even though he Canadian born ? did the Communists help him with standardized Ukrainian ?

Galicians also had to abandon their regional form of Ukrainian, as did the Carpatho-Rusyns. Did that stop millions of each group from learning the language and retain their region variants. - btw, the answer is no.

The interwar government of Czechoslovakia could not distinguish Rusyn from Ukrainian and so counted the people together. The Communists continued where the interwar government left off.

Using your logic that the Rusyns abondoned their native language because only standardized Ukrainian was offered to them, would mean that those who identified as Ukrainians should have prospered. In fact both vanished because the Slovak government had subtle methedologies to assimmilate the population into the Slovak majority.

There was a systematic policy of the Slovak government to Slovakize the the Ruthenians-Ukrainians. They needed to do this to ensure their long term survival.

Hritzko

Tim,

Here are some more hints:

(1) 'Katsap': is perhaps a more common spelling of the word.

(2) It's not a Heinz product.

(3) You have reminded us on occassion that you have been, are, and will be forever this non-Heinz product.

Hritzko

Dear Administrator,

Long before Jesus Christ came to teach us, Moses gave us 10 simple rules to live by. One of them was not to 'bear false witness'.

I'm not lying when I say:

(1) Excessive Slovak nationalism completely Slovakized and severely Latinized the Ruthenian Greek Catholics of what is now Slovakia. In fact, they are no longer considered Ruthenian but simply Byzantines.

(2) Excessive American nationalism completely Americanized and severely Latinized the Ruthenian Greek Catholics of what are now the United States of America. In fact, they are no longer considered Ruthenian but simply American Byzantines . Many think they are Slovaks .

We are currently preparing a documentary concerning the loss of Ruthenian-Ukrainian identity in Slovakia and will highlight the fact there were 290 Ukrainian-Ruthenian schools two generations ago, but only 27 today.

At the same time that the Ruthenian-Greek Catholic Church was undergoing it's most rapid Slovakization / Latinization in Slovakia (ie: the 1968 change from Slavonic to Slovak liturgy and Latinization of the rite) the USA Byzantine Ruthenian Metropolia was publishing anti-Ukrainian-Ruthenian literature (1971).

We would really like to know what was going on in the USA Byzantine Metropolia's 'head' when they were aiding in the ethnocide of their own church. Is there anyone left in the USA Byzantine Metropolia who still speaks Ruthenian-Ukrainian who could be interviewed for the documentary we are preparing ?

The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church Eparchy of Mukachiv (Ukraine) is leading the fight to return the Ruthenian character to the hills of Slovakia. They refuse to permit the generations of Slovakization & Latinization of their church to continue but would like to reverse the trend in Priashiv (Presov). The prospects are grim but as Tim says; "there is still hope".

Here is a good summary of the church in Slovakia:

Slovak \'ethnic cleansing\' of the Ruthenian-Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Slovakia [uaoc.org]

Hritzko

Yeah, I just stuck with the spelling being used. As you know, transliteration is always a problem.

--tim

Dear Hritzko,

Thank you for your post.

I disagree with your accusation that I am bearing �false witness�. I submit that it is not a proper for you to accuse others of bearing �false witness� merely because they do not accept your opinions.

Points 1 and 2 have nothing to do with your continuing promotion of the idea that there is not a separate Carpatho-Rusin ethnicity and that Carpatho-Rusins are really Ukrainians. Really, you are merely pointing out what has happened in Slovakia and then stating that you wish the Ukrainians to do the exact same thing to the Carpatho-Rusins that the Slovaks and others did. Even Alex (Orthodox Catholic) has e-mailed me to tell me that he believes that your conclusions on this issue are incorrect.

I am an example of the type of person you mention in point 2. My grandparents were Rusins from Transcarpathia. They came to America to become Americans, because there was a better life here. They did not come here to form a perpetual Carpatho-Rusin ethnic enclave. I am not a Slav. I am an American. My future is here, in the English-speaking country of America. I wish the peoples who live in other countries well, but I have no desire to move to Transcarpathia or anywhere else.

You asked: �We would really like to know what was going on in the USA Metropolia's 'head' when they were aiding in the ethnocide of their own church. Is there anyone left in the USA Metropolia who still speaks Ruthenian-Ukrainian who could be interviewed for the documentary we are preparing?�

Do you really think that the survival of the Byzantine Catholic Church in the New World is dependent upon the Church fostering nationalism? If yes, I urge you to reconsider your opinions. Fostering nationalism is the fastest way to kill a Church. Proclaiming the Gospel is the only way to make it grow. We especially see this in the loss of members in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Canada, which has lost 48% of its members in the last 15 years. Unless you plan on bringing in a continuing supply of emigrants from Ukraine your Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church will be pretty much gone in another 20 years. The future of our respective Churches is not dependent upon preserving ethnicity but rather directly dependent upon how many North Americans (of all ethnicities) we bring to Christ and into our Churches.

I agree that the Byzantine/Greek Catholic Church in Transcarpathia is leading the fight to restore the Carpatho-Rusin ethnicity and to get the authorities to recognize it. As part of this effort the seminary in Uzhorod does not use the Ukrainian language in its daily life but the separate Rusin language. They also celebrate the Divine Services in Church Slavonic and prohibit the use of Ukrainian. The prospects of surviving the cultural force of the larger Ukrainian ethnic group are grim but we can hope and encourage them.

I find it very interesting and sad that you dismiss the testimony of the many people who live in the part of Transcarpathia that lies within the current borders of Ukraine that they are not Ukrainian and have no wish to become Ukrainian. It was wrong when the Russians forced Russian ethnicity upon Ukrainians. It is now wrong when Ukrainians force Ukrainian ethnicity upon the various ethnic minorities living within the borders of Ukraine.

Admin

The Jews of today will say �never again� about the Holocaust. Indeed, it was a terrible event in the history of the Jewish people. Yet, the Israeli government perpetrates heinous crimes against the non-Jewish Palestinians.

There was a time when Ukrainian language was not recognized and things Ukrainian were thought of as Little Russian or Southern Russian, at least by the Russians (Great Russians). Because of the size and strength (persistence) of the now Ukrainian community a language, culture and eventually nation have all come to be accepted.

The Rusins have not been so lucky. They are few in number and live scattered among several bordering nations. Do they share many things in common with the Ukrainians? You bet. But so do English-speaking Canadians and Americans. Yet, no one is arguing they are the same.

What makes English-speaking Canadians and Americans different is not merely where they live but their own self-perception (or �conception) and their history. Language does not divide them.

Whether or not there is a Rusin language or if there has been a Rusin state is not the point. There was a time when there was not a Ukrainian language or a Ukrainian state. Yet, peoples� self-identity eventually emerged.

One can take many of the arguments in this thread against Rusin identity and merely change the terms to Russian and Ukrainian and we will simply be talking about the past. The Great Russians were not open to a separate Ukrainian language and culture. Yet the Ukrainians fought it. The Ukrainians of today do not allow the Rusins what they (the Ukrainians) themselves eventually gained. It is the classical story of the oppressed becoming the oppressor. Why is this not obvious?

Hritzko,

Unless you really believe that the audience for this mind-numbing eternologue (that you somehow foisted onto us from a thread on the role of churches in Romania as a tourist attraction) is ever-shifting, which I doubt, you can save the energy that goes into re-creating new textual descriptive titles for the url of the same article

Ruthenian-Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in post WW2 Slovakia - Short summary [uaoc.org]

Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Bishops loss of power in Slovakia [uaoc.org]

Slovak \'ethnic cleansing\' of the Ruthenian-Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Slovakia [uaoc.org]

and save everyone time in bothering to look by adapting one of those clever bibliographic tools, indicating that the reference is the same as that last used, to internet usage (e.g., ibid. [uaoc.org] ).

Many years,

Neil

Would love to read the documentation for the declaration as Ukrainians. Bps. Novak, Papp, or even Stojko? Dubious.

Dear Tim,
"Kacap" (and I am deliberately using the transliteration most familiar to GCSSSCM) is neither an obscenity nor a bad name - and, for that matter, I did not apply it to anyone. I pointed out that there is a parody in circulation of Duchnovich's original poem, and asked if anyone has the words to the parody.
Kacap itself, as the parody makes clear, refers to people who take the view that the GCSSSCM are in fact Russians. I've met people on several sides of the religious tangle who take that view, although I think that their numbers have seriously diminished in recent years. Still, that view does not lack significance; the present Metropolitan of the Russian Church Abroad certainly espouses that view (and identifies himself as Carpatho-Russian quite happily).
The same word is sometimes used in Galician Ukrainian with reference to someone or something who prefers an Orthodox style of serving to the hybridized alternatives. But that issue is not involved in the parody, just as the problems of the nineteen-thirties are not involved in the parody.
So might I request you to pause before taking offense when no offense was either intended or offered?
Incognitus

[I am an example of the type of person you mention in point 2. My grandparents were Rusins from Transcarpathia. They came to America to become Americans, because there was a better life here. They did not come here to form a perpetual Carpatho-Rusin ethnic enclave. I am not a Slav. I am an American. My future is here, in the English-speaking country of America. I wish the peoples who live in other countries well, but I have no desire to move to Transcarpathia or anywhere else.]

[Do you really think that the survival of the Byzantine Catholic Church in the New World is dependent upon the Church fostering nationalism? If yes, I urge you to reconsider your opinions. Fostering nationalism is the fastest way to kill a Church. Proclaiming the Gospel is the only way to make it grow. We especially see this in the loss of members in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Canada, which has lost 48% of its members in the last 15 years. Unless you plan on bringing in a continuing supply of emigrants from Ukraine your Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church will be pretty much gone in another 20 years. The future of our respective Churches is not dependent upon preserving ethnicity but rather directly dependent upon how many North Americans (of all ethnicities) we bring to Christ and into our Churches.]

Very well stated. Very well stated!

OrthoMan

I'm not a Ukrainian and really was unaware of how Ukrainians may use the word. I do know how Rusyns have used the term, and since I'm not Orthodox, I wouldn't have any reason to take offense.

I apologize if I gave the impression you had offended me.

--tim

Dear Tim,
My thanks for your courteous, speedy and welcome response. By the way, I'm not a Ukrainian either; I simply enjoy the study of languages. The words people use and the way in which they use them can tell us quite a lot.
Incognitus

We especially see this in the USA as well. This is not limited to Canada. The Ruthenian Metropolia, devoid of married priests in the USA, is in a similar sort of decline curve as well as the Ukrainian eparchies. The percentages of decline may differ, but the impact and effect of decline are the same. In another 20 years if not overturned ALL will be suffering a similar fate.

If we don't work together as Greek Catholics and get over all the insular ethnic arguments, there will be many fewer churches for the grandchildren to attend.

Dear Administrator,

Contrary to what you state, there is a long history of episcopal and popular support for the Mukachevo Eparchy inclusion in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

When Mukachevo was declared to be part of Carpatho-Ukraine in 1938, the Ruthenian Greek-Catholic (Byzantine) bishops fully declared themselves to be Ukrainian. These facts are documented.

When the same region fell to the Hungarian facists, Ruthenian (bishop to be) Margitych fought the invaders as part of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army - UPA ( Ukrajinska Povstanska Armia). See obituary of Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Bishop:

Bishop Margitych of Mukachevo - Obituary [ugcc.org.va]

(btw - I bet this is something Hungarian Professor would not like you to know about )

Many Greek-Catholics from Carpatho-Ukraine were forced to flee to the West because of the Soviet menace. The vast majority of Carpatho-Ruthenians who emigrated after the war joined the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church and prospered. We have posted in the past of Monsignor Baran of the UGCC in Winnipeg, Manitoba who published much about the eparchy.

When the Zakarpattia region became part of the Soviet Union, the Greek-Catholic Church whent underground. The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church of the Soviet Union became the largest banned church in the world. It was severely persecuted but managed to survive and resurfaced as an integral Ukrainian Church 1989. Bishop Margitych was part of a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church delegation with Ukrainian Nationalists that departed for Moscow to demand the legalization of the church. See more details:

History of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in the Soviet Union - Mukachevo Eparchy included [ichistory.org]

During the late 1960's to early 1970's the Greek-Catholics in 'Soviet Ukraine' (Zakarpattia included) were undergoing severe (some of the worst) persecution by the Communist authorities. During these difficult times, the Ukrainian nationalists were doing all possible to bring the dire predicament of the church to the forefront of international politics. They also became the only group defending the church in Ukraine. They did this in a global coordinated and comprehensive manner.

Patriarch Joseph Slipyj was perhaps the single most important person in the West who kept the memory of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church alive. His accomplishments in defending and upholding the rights of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in the West are unparalled and were fully supported by the Ukrainian nationalists.

The USA Byzantine Metropolia did nothing to protect the Greek Catholic Church during it's dark days in the Soviet Union. The USA Byzantine Metropolia did nothing to stop the Latinization & Slovakization of the millennium old Ruthenian-Ukrainians of Communist Slovakia. The USA Metropolia published anti-Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church propaganda at the very time that the Ukrainians in Zakarpattia needed public support and not additional humiliation 'a la' Moscow Patriarch.

All of the above can be well document. Your personal conversations with alleged "people who are unhappy as being labelled Ukrainian" have yet to be proven. There can be no doubt that there are groups all over Ukraine who are seeking ways to enter the EU, some suggestions have been to separate the Western most areas and join Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, etc.... The EU does not want this to happen.

Sir, I believe your comments come from an attempt to deflect the guilt that you, and I believe many in your church have, for having participated in the ethnocide of your Ruthenian Greek-Catholic religion and culture. You are ovecompensating for past mistakes, without clearly understanding the history, politics, and the languages of the peoples.

You may, or may not have spoken to someone who feels that they are not Ukrainian in the Zakarpattia Oblast of Ukraine. I have spoken to many members of the nationalistic Ukrainian Scouts (PLAST) in Slovakia who tell me that they wish to be part of Ukraine (btw - many identify as Rusyn and Slovak also ). Further, they lament at the loss of the Ukrainian-Ruthenian ethnicity of the Carpathian mountains of Slovakia. I have also spoken to a friend who works with Ukrainian cultural groups in the Presov area who feel very happy to be Ukrainian, but feel fine just where they are.

What is most important about their feelings is that relatively speaking they are irrelevant to current affairs in Eastern Europe - as is your near hysterical belief (you seem to have lots of personal unsubstantiated conversations that nobody else does ) of mass unrest in Zakarpattia Oblast of Ukraine. If this great displeasure existed, it would have made the main stream press. For example, here is the mainstream press in Mukachevo (in standardized Ukrainian), with absolutely no mention of the 'Ruthenian' hysteria you have so often described:

Mukachevo main newscenter [zamok.mukachevo.net]

I understand your need to atone for the past mistakes of your church in regards to your self inflicted ethnocide (both here in the USA and Slovakia) but 'overcompensating' is not healthy.

You should also aknowledge that without the Ukrainian Social Christian nationalists, there would be no Greek-Catholicism in Zakarpattia Oblast Ukraine.

At some point in the existance of your American Byzantine Metropolia, you should undergo some serious introspection and ask yourselves why you openly attacked the largest banned church in the world, particularly at a time when it was undergoing some of it's most severe persecution. Once you have fully completed an introspective analysis of your USA Byzantine Metropolia's activities over the past few generation, you will come to worship the Ukrainian nationalists (including Zakarpattians).

Although the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic church numbers have decreased here in North America due to natural assimmilatory forces, we have a five step plan in place to rapidly increase the numbers:

(1) Direct Ukrainian immigrants to North America (we have been discouraging them from comming).

(2) Tell all the people who now attend our churches but are not members that they can now join.

(3) Stop discouraging people from becoming members (but we will still remain relatively selective).

(4) Tell all of the above to have more than two children (ie: 3 - 5)

(5) Keep people healthy so they live longer

Right now our churches are overflowing in Europe and around the world. We are about to establish new exarchates and eparchies where I never imagined Ukrainians (Ruthenians) would ever live (Japan ).

Your comments concerning ethnicity in America are very interesting but very much American. Canadians are much more multi-cultural in their view of society and my views on culture are much more in keeping with the people North of the border. We pride ourselves on retaining our culture and ties to the old world. I'm sorry if you do not approve.

Hritzko

Quite possibly. There were always three factions. Those who considered themselves to be Carpatho-Rusins (the largest by far), those who considered themselves to be Ukrainians (a small but vocal minority) and those with Russian sympathies (an even smaller but also vocal minority). In 1938 there were many political forces that influenced Ruthenian life. The country�s title �Carpatho-Ukraine� was not even chosen by anyone in greater Ruthenian. It was chosen by Hitler and Volosin (by all accounts a very nasty man) was eager to please Hitler. Everything that happened during this period must be examined carefully. People said many things in 1938 just to survive.

I agree. In prior discussions on this Forum I have expressed great regret that the clergy and people of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia did nothing to help the Greek Catholic Church in Europe during these days. I have also stated numerous times that the National Council of Catholic Bishops (now the United States Council of Bishops) also said nothing. Their action seemed to actually support the Soviet Union, especially in the period from the 1960s � 1980s.

But this has nothing to do with the right of self determination of the Carpatho-Rusin people.

I agree. See above. Still, this has nothing to do with the right of self determination of the Carpatho-Rusin people.

Again, it was a complicated time. The actions of the Byzantine Metropolia in the United States were far from courageous. Still, this has nothing to do with the right of self determination of the Carpatho-Rusin people.

Please pick up the telephone and contact the Blessed Theodore Romzha Seminary in Uzhorod. Anyone who answers the phone will do. But if you need a name please ask for Father John Zeyack (an acquaintance of mine). Ask them if they consider themselves to be Carpatho-Rusin or Ukrainian. When you speak with them try to be unbiased as it is possible to word questions to get desired answers.

I was not involved. I have no guilt. I suggest you direct your accusations to the appropriate ecclesial authorities.

Your verbal force is a form of persecution in itself. I can only recommend that you put aside your extreme Ukrainian nationalism and look at history with unbiased eyes.