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One of my dear friends is Western Rite Orthodox. They are under the Patriarch of Antioch and are allowed to celebrate two liturgies:

Liturgy of St Tikhon (modified Anglican Book of Common Prayer)

Liturgy of St Gregory (modified Tridentine mass)

I was wondering how Eastern Catholics and Orthodox view this group. Unfortunately they are asked to accept many Byzantinizations (opposite of Latinization). For example, the liturges are changed to reflect Byzantine custom. They beef up the epiclesis and add other things.

I find it ironic that Eastern Christians are always complaining about Latinizations but when they get their hands on some Western Christians in their jurisdiction, they enforce Byzantinizations. I guess it's inevitable. Hopefully, these sorts of mixes and matches will just continue until there is a universal rite in about 300 years in an undivided Church.

love in Christ,
Marshall

Marshall,

I think if you look at the particulars, the case is not surprising. I don't believe the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch has ever had much to say about latinizations in the Catholic Church, so they can't be faulted on that!

I am also not sure these groups have had any Byzantinizations forced upon them. I think they are quite content with their liturgical practice.

I don't think the Orthodox approched these former Episcopalians with an agressive or imperalist approach, either. I think the Episcopalian group approached them. This was a very difficult pastoral dilemma for the Orthodox. I don't think anyone views it as a model for anything, but a pastoral accomodation made to an extraordinary situation. I think the Orthodox have quite honest that this is something for the pastoral care of those specific people affiliated with these groups, not a model for expansion.

Others may know more than I do.

Kurt

Marshall,

What I think, straight up:

I understand the Orthodox logic behind Western Rite groups, and know they are entirely small-o orthodox, but I agree that it is a kind of reverse uniatism and that the byzantinization of the ancient and venerable Roman Rite is unnecessary and a disgrace, just like the latinization programs imposed on Byzantine Catholics (and sometime self-imposed!) to "make them more Catholic' (that was stupid).

Having said that, I believe if one wants to be an apostolic Christian of the Roman Rite, be a Roman Catholic. No slight intended to Byzantine Catholics, but the direct successors of Byzantine Christianity with the rite, theology and cultures intact, is Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Byzantine Catholicism has grace. It is small-o orthodox. There are people in it who live and breathe big-O Orthodox and suffer for that. But as a whole, Byzantine Catholic Churches are now an "other', under the Roman Church (yes, in practice) and not really directly descended from Byzantium anymore. The Orthodox-minded martyrs among you are working to change that.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

I would say that the common disposition of the Orthodox is as much anti-Western "rite" as it is anti-Uniate (you used the word first ).

And when I say "anti", I mean the alternative Greek definition which means "instead of".

The Orthodox, for the most part, do not feel a Western "rite" "mass" can replace the unity which is acheived and found through the use of common prayers, cycles of services, ect., and dare I say calendar.

I think this is the affront also seen in the Byzantine Latin's. Besides the obvious ecclesiological concerns, it is perceived in reality the assualt the Popes have always tried to impose in theory, the reduction of everything Christ Himself directed to a Roman "rite".

At least in my experience, there seems to be a pretty cold reaction to the WR.

On the web somewhere, you can find a very negative encyclical by Archbishop Anthony, GOA Bishop of San Fransisco, who wrote it a couple of years ago. He basically said (this is from memory) that Greek clergy in his diocese couldn't concelebrate with WR clergy, and WR clergy who wanted to concelebrate with GOA clergy had to wear Eastern Vestments. I just remembered-go to the web page for Holy Trinity Cathedral, (one of 4 cathedrals in the OCA's diocese of SF) at

[URL=http://www.holy-trinity.org][/URL]

Other than that, I have to concur with Marshall and Serge-I don't like the Byzantinizations.

In Christ,

Michael

PS: This is rather late, but its nice to see you back Serge!

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Michael King ]

Kurt is quite correct (and I believe very objective in his analysis). Such a Christian witness through conduct is a blessing. Thank you, Sir.

The Western Rite has existed in theory long before these over 20 parishes joined the Antiochian Archdiocese. The model was established by the Holy Synod of Russia (which of course had many Poles, Lithuanians ad Latvians within the pre World War I Empire (as were many Byzantines, both Catholic and Orthodox, in Austria-Hungary, thus this Rusyn Catholic Web Site).

Some Episcopalians approached St. Tikhon when he was in the see of New York about a Western Rite. He was receptive, as was the Holy Synod in St. Petersburg. Thus the Rite of St. Tikhon, based upon the Book of Common Prayer. They were also involved in the Byzantine Services in English, through the work of Isabel Hapgood (still in print through the Antiochian Archdiocese)and the Young Men's Christian Association.

At St. Stephen's and the Antiochian House of Studies, students of both Rites study together (in fact, in week one there are special Western Rite Courses as a part of the House). All Western Rite Parishes are integral parts of their Regions (without special Ritual Bishops). Thus, you have a micro version of the pre-Schism Byzantine Church based upon Territory (and not Rite). Of Course this very fundamental issue in the concept of Ecclesia (or the People of God United Around Their Local Bishop As THE Church In Its Totality)was the straw breaking the camel's back in 1054.

In Christ:

Three Cents

Dear Michael,

Archbishop Antony received a tongue-lashing from Archpriest Fr. Scneirla for what he said about the Western Rite.

The Archbishop wasn't prepared for the rebuttal and then demonstrated his complete ignorance of the Western Rite, since that is what it was, complete ignorance and a particular Eastern Church chauvinism that can infect Byzantine Catholics as well.

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Friends,
I have met the Western Rite Orthodox , as we have several of their parishes in Texas. They are very happy in the Antiochian Orthodox Church (AOC). Their Bishop, His Grace Basil is seen as supportive by them and they have become a gathering place for former Episcopalians, Methodists, and other former protestants who are not prepared to accept His Holiness Pope John Paul II as the Supreme and Infallible Pontiff.

I have not met any former Roman Catholics in any of the Parishes, there may be a few, but I have not met them. Their association with the AOC was voluntary with them approaching the AOC, not the other way around. In the annual Southwest Region Family Conference their presence is felt and there are several Western Rite Liturgies that are well attended by both rites. In recognition that a Priest is a Priest, their priests may serve in either Eastern Rite or Western Rite.

I believe that the changes presented to St Tikhon by the Russian Holy Synod makes it generally easier to bring the Western Rite into the church by eliminating any point of issue that could be legitimately raised against the rite by other Orthodox jurisdictions.

I hopeful , without our offending our Roman Catholic bretheren, to say that we should be thankful that the Holy Spirit inspired a way for the Church to provide haven for these Christians so traumatized by the modernizations of their former protestant homes. A way was provided for them to enter again into orthodox beliefs and have another way into the Historic Holy Orthodox Catholic Church. They were the lost sheep who have come home.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

I find nothing wrong with the Western Rite of Orthodoxy. I don't believe it is reverse uniatism as Serge has said. I believe it is rich with Holy Tradition and has the blessing of Patriarchs. Many may not like it and many will find it to be acceptable. I have no problem with Byzantinization. In fact, Byzantinization is a known fact amongst all Orthodox Patriarchates. I wonder what Serge's problem is. It certainy is not the equivalent of Latinization. Latinization is subjucation of "forced" practice and belief according to the Latin Rite. Whereas, Byzantinization is incorporation of language, people, and customs.
Right now I am looking for a fight. Bring it on!

Dear Rum,

With respect to the Western Orthodox Liturgy, you are, well, "Rite On!"

Happy King Charles the Martyr's Day today!

Alex

Thank you Orthodox Catholic, Rum Orthodox, Kurt and Thomas for your comments. I've been a lurker for some time here, but I feel compelled to say a few things at this point.

I belong to St. Peter's, a Western Rite Parish of the Antiochian Archdiocese. It's an interesting place. A number of us are former episcopalians, a number of us are just recovering fundamentalists who needed a home. We love our Bishop, who is very helpful and supportive to us. We've caught wind of some opposition here and there, but mostly we feel a lot of love from our Orthodox Brethren of several jurisdictions in Fort Worth and Dallas.

About Byzantinizations, or whatever they're being called: West has been borrowing from the East from the beginning, and vice versa. When that sort of exchange stopped, i.e. when the Church started acting like two churches, schism quickly followed. I take the queer, awkward mixing of cultures that goes on in my parish and diocese to be a very small start in the right direction. I pray every day for reconciliation. If healing is to occur, then Eastern Christians will have to learn how to get along with Western Christians and will have to learn that the Kingdom is made present in different languages and even different rites. I think the Western Rite, in addition to being a wonderful act of hospitality on the part of the Antioch, may be able to serve as a sort of primer for Orthodox in how to be in communion with Westerners. It seems like Byzantine Catholics provide the same service to Roman Catholicism. By and large, however, it seems that it's the Orthodox who need the most assistance in this regard. God bless Pope John Paul II for his courageous and Christ-like efforts towards healing!

And again, let me thank you for the kind words said here about the WR Orthodox.

Peace,

David

Dear Marshall,

As an Antiochian WR Orthodox, I wonder what other "Byzantinizations" you refer to other than the explicit descending epiclesis of the Holy Spirit. This is the only possible Byzantinization I can think of, at least in our Eucharistic Liturgy - and only in the case of the Gregorian Liturgy. The epiclesis of the Tikhonite Liturgy is merely based on earlier Anglican forms, whereas the one added to the Roman Rite is straight from the Byzantine Liturgy. As I have mentioned on this forum before, this added epiclesis is not seen as somehow necessary to a valid Mass by the Antiochian authorities, but was added so as not to create controversy in an already skeptical environment.

Another Byzantine influence is in the practice of Confirmation (Chrismation) by a Priest right after Baptism. Otherwise, every other aspect of our practice is authentically Western.

As for the coming "universal rite," I think this is the very last thing Christendom needs - the obliteration of local difference and cultural diversity (in the non PC sense) in favor of some forced uniformity. This has been an unfortunate trend in the West since Trent, as well as in the East - the suppression of most perfectly valid local liturgical customs, or even entire liturgical families (the other Eastern Liturgies of Antioch and Alexandria, the Gallican, etc.). The gradual stripping away of content lead to the eventual suppression of even the reformed Tridentine Roman Rite in favor of a Novus Ordo Missae (which, in my opinion, has very little continuity with the ancient Roman Rite, though the attempt was to return to an earlier form). I think Catherine Pickstock in "After Writing" has dealt brilliantly with all of these topics.

Benjamin Andersen
Denver, CO.

Regarding how Byzantine Catholics might view Western Rite Orthodox:

I know a very smart Byzantine Catholic Priest and seminary professor who is of the opinion that the very existence of Western Rite Orthodoxy is a very important lesson for the Eastern Orthodox in the toleration and understanding of Western ethos and practices. And I think that he is correct here - and that it has been very instructive for the Orthodox. It shows us that we were once in full communion with a Western half of the Empire, which had its own Saints, its own distinct cultural ethos and entirely different forms of liturgy.

To many Orthodox this is an incredible revelation - that the Orthodox Church is in fact Catholic, for all men, all cultures, all places. This is one of the stated purposes of the existence of the Orthodox Western Rite in the Edict of Metropolitan Anthony Bashir in 1958 - a witness to the catholicity of the Orthodox Church. The mutual acceptance and understanding of the historic differences between East and West is absolutely essential in any healing of the schism.

As for all of the supposed detractors of the Orthodox Western Rite, they certainly do exist - but I think that their numbers are greatly exaggerated. We find mostly that they are people who already have some sort of deep seated resentment of Roman Catholics or Anglicans - Baptist converts for instance, who are always on the lookout for popish practices, or jealous of any hint of upper class Episcopal society. We owe absolutely nothing to these sorts of people, and are no longer bothered by them. We answer to our hierarchy and to no one else.

Benjamin Andersen
Denver, CO.

Dear Benjamin and David,

You are more than welcome and I wish you a happy King Charlestide!

When I attended the Western Rite Antiochian Orthodox conference here in Toronto, the question of the "byzantinization" of the Western Rite was brought up.

But one Western Rite Orthodox Christian spoke up and said that the inclusion of the Eucharistic prayer before Communion was actually requested by the Antiochian Patriarch himself.

Rather than see this as a forced "Byzantinization," it demonstrated a real interest in the Western Rite by His Holiness the Patriarch of Antioch.

For anyone who has ever attended a Western Rite Orthodox Liturgy or seen a procession with a Statue of Our Lady of Walsingham etc., there is no doubt about the Western Rite spiritual culture of these Churches.

In fact, the Orthodox Catholic Church in England in the time of St Theodore of Tarsus, Archbishop of Canterbury, had developed its very unique Rite with beautiful icons ablaze on the church walls, iconostases or Rood Screens and many other traditions that demonstrated the imprint of Byzantine, Roman and Celtic influence, welded together into the genius of Anglo-Saxon Christianity.

The Western Rite Orthodox of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in particular is a most worthy descendant of the greatness of Orthodox Catholic Christianity of the West, prior to the Schism of 1054.

Many Anglican divines, including King Charles I, William Laud, Thomas Ken, William Law, Jeremy Taylor, Edward King of Lincoln and many others were intimately familiar with the Eastern Fathers and Byzantine Christianity and hoped for the restoration of the glory of previous ages to their Church in union with the "undivided Church of the first Thousand Years after Christ."

Sometimes I feel that our Eastern Catholic/Orthodox preoccupation with opposing Latinization prevents us from seeing the Orthodox Catholic riches of Christ of the West.

Let's oppose that feeling too . . .

Alex

The Orthodox Church allowed them to retain their western culture and religious practice (at a certain degree):

- Cannonizations made in the West after 1054 are not recognized.
- Communion is only permited with leavened bread and not with Azima and under both species.
- The trisagion must be sung in order to confess the union with the orthodox church.
- Baptize is administrated by triple inmersion and followed inmediately by chrismation.
- The only western order that is recognized is the Benedictine Order.
- The church would try to (gradually) supress those practices and things that are liberal.

If former episcopalians now follow the Tychon rite, who follows the tridentine mass???? (I don't think they've received too many catholics)