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Including, excluding or without comment on desegregation of seating based on race?

K.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

Dear Remie,

The Antiochian Orthodox Church's Rite of St Gregory does have parishes with former Roman Catholics, Old Catholics and Old Roman Catholics.

I met a number at the Western Rite Orthodoxy conference in Toronto who were preparing to become Orthodox.

It is true that western canonizations following 1054 are not, in principle, recognized, but there are many "Western Riters" who continue to venerate St Francis and others. The Rite of St Tikhon has many who venerate the Anglican saint, King Charles the Martyr and I know of one Western Rite Orthodox priest who has a large icon of him in his parish church.

This rule does not mean to say that the Orthodox Church somehow doesn't acknowledge the sanctity of the Western saints. Recognition of sanctity isn't the issue, communion with the Church is, and since this is still broken, this is why the principle applies.

Western Rite Orthodox also do things like Benediction with the Blessed Sacrament, Stations of the Cross and use statues such as that of Our Lady of Walsingham.

It would be difficult to measure the impact of the Western Rites of Orthodoxy on Roman Catholicism, since many RC converts to Orthodoxy join the majority Eastern Churches of Orthodoxy.

Alex

The Orthodox Church allowed them to retain their western culture and religious practice (at a certain degree):

Do you mean the OCA diocese in Mexico or the Western Rite Vicariate of the Antiochian Orthodox?

- Cannonizations made in the West after 1054 are not recognized.

Perhaps unfortunate but logical and understandable.

- Communion is only permited with leavened bread and not with Azima and under both species.

Huh? My understanding is the ex-Episcopalians who do Western Rite use wafers just like when they were Episcopalian. Is some yeast added to byzantinize it in theory, "making it Orthodox'? I don't buy that thinking. Reverse uniatism.

- The trisagion must be sung in order to confess the union with the orthodox church.

The trisagion is wonderful but is this really any different from pressuring Byzantine Catholics to change the Creed to "confess the union with the Catholic Church'? So this is wrong.

- Baptism is administrated by triple inmersion and followed inmediately by chrismation.

Of course triple immersion is the ideal everywhere. Still, these are byzantinizations.

- The only western order that is recognized is the Benedictine Order.

Understandable as it is preschism. By "recognize' I trust you mean that whatever Western Orthodox you are referring to may form monasteries following the Benedictine rule.

- The church would try to (gradually) supress those practices and things that are liberal.

Deleting "see how liberal and charitable I am about race, unlike those traditionalist newcomers to my Church I hate so much'* follow-up commentary, I am perplexed. The former Episcopalians who are now Antiochian Orthodox never were liberal. And the Mexicans in the OCA are Byzantine Rite AFAIK — their liberal "Old Catholic' days are long over.

If former episcopalians now follow the Tychon rite, who follows the tridentine mass???? (I don't think they've received too many catholics)

That's right — there aren't a lot of ex-Catholics in the Western Rite Vicariate. I think its version of the Tridentine Mass is also used by ex-Episcopalians, continuing the practices they had, more or less, when they were Episcopalian.

*An implied big lie about trad. newcomers to the Byzantine Catholic Churches — hey, I thought liberals were supposed to be unprejudiced. In 20 years of knowing traditionalists, I can count the racists on one hand.

http://oldworldrus.com

Bless me a sinner, Reader Sergius!

Yes, but triple immersion was practiced by the entire Church before the schism and so the Western Riters are returning to the fullness of their own ritual practice.

The Trisagion is an interesting point. It is sung in Greek in our Hierarchical Liturgies and was often sung in Greek by non-Greek Eastern Churches. The "Kirie Eleison" was another instance as was the practice of doing the Words of Institution in Greek.

There was an "unwritten rule" that the Trisagion had to be recited by any Church claiming to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I've read this, but as it didn't really interest me at the time, I didn't delve into it further.

This is what this rule is saying, and the Western Rites did, at one time, have the Trisagion in Greek.

The same applies to the three-fingered sign of the Cross, even though Western Rite Orthodox make is only once, and not three times.

Pope Innocent III at the time of St Francis of Assisi actually wrote a tract in defence of the Orthodox sign of the Cross with three fingers against the "innovations of those who use the whole hand."

Ukrainian Catholic prayerbooks of the 18th and 19th centuries often had a Slavonic translation of this papal tract as a way to defend by virtue of papal legitimation the practice of the Orthodox Sign of the Cross against Latin encroachments.

The only REAL Latinism in the Western Rite is the inclusion of the Byzantine pre-Communion prayer of the Thief in their liturgies.

This was made by the Patriarch of Antioch himself who is quite fascinated by the Western Liturgies.

Yet, at the conference I attended, this matter was raised and all the Western Riters, two liturgical experts among them, felt that the beauty of this prayer alone justified its inclusion in their liturgy.

Finally, I think that the "Byzantinizations" of the Western Rite compared to the "Latinizations" of the Eastern (Catholic) Rites are really apples and oranges.

The Latinizations were often imposed on Eastern Catholics within an all-out agenda of trying to make them Roman Catholic (as some believed, the "next and final step" to becoming "totally Catholic").

The Western Riters have no such pressure exerted upon them.

If anything, they have gone beyond what the Orthodox Church has, in principle, allowed including their saints etc., and the Orthodox bishops in question stay silent about these.

As one enthusiastic Western Riter Priest told me, "And silence gives consent!"

Alex

Just to clarify afactual error, the Antiochean Orthodox Church including its Western Rite Vicariate, is not my Church nor never has been.

K.

Just to clarify afactual error, the Antiochean Orthodox Church including its Western Rite Vicariate, is not my Church nor never has been.

No, your swipe was directed at all traditionalists, both the newcomers in your Church you don't want AND the new Antiochians in the Western Rite Vicariate.

An area of misunderstanding, which some interpret as an opportunity to make swipes, is the meaning in different contexts of the word "liberal'. I distinguish liberality — charity, generosity... Christian virtue — from liberalism. But even liberalism is a relative term and not per se a dirty word. Economic liberalism at the time of Adam Smith (free market best serves everybody) is different from what it often means today (socialism or semi-socialism).

The swipe played on these multiple meanings. The original message referred to theological liberalism (relativism, denying Christ — heresy, even apostasy in extreme cases) while the swiper instead tarred theological conservatives (conservative -> opposite of "liberal', ha ha) as racists.

Some people get a kick out of putting razor blades into candy and watching the results.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Bless me a sinner, Reader Sergius,

I really don't think Kurt put any razor blades into any apples . . .

It's so much fun having the both of you on this Forum.

And the fact that Kurt wrote in support of your project shows his heart's really in the right place - if not in the "Right" place.

Without Kurt here, what's "Left?"

Love y'a guys, just love y'a!

Alex

I would maintain it is those who us ethe term in a negative and undefined fashion are taking a swipe. Nothing prevents anyone from deliniating what they mean rather than use terms with multiple means which then allow others (or allow themselves) to read it as a swipe at people they don't like rather than a specific idea they disagree with.

I make no apologies by my dislike of conservativism, a hateful philosophy.*

K.


* Following the rules set by others, since I am the author, I get to choose what this term means!!

Dear Kurt,

But at least you are very conservative when it comes to keeping your liberalism (defined however you like)!

You do "conserve" that . . .

There are conservative Marxists and socialists, at least so my sociology profs said . . .

I think I'm a conservative, but I'm an inclusive one and just LOVE everybody.

With all these wonderful people about, how can one not?

Alex

So true, Alex.

G.B. Shaw once said the only thing Conservatives are interested in conserving is the wealth of the most generation to acquire any. That's one definition.

I'm pro-life, pro-school voucher, (not much of an issue up in Canada, I hear), anti-communist, anti-deficit spending, and unquestioning of the formal teachings of the Catholic Church, yet a liberal to some. Other say I cannot be a liberal because I am pro-life. Most of my Canadian friends are not Liberals but New Democrats.

I don't mind if I am called a liberal or not. I just don't see how I am a danger to society!

K.

Serge:

The information I posted comes from the Antiochian Vicariate:

http://www.westernorthodox.com

The Exarchate of Mexico is not "western rite" (the OCA has no western rite parishes), it is a byzantine-slavonic mission for Mexican christians.
After the Revolution a number of catholic priests and faithful decided to become Orthodox, but unfortunately the leader of the movement and the larger part of the group split away and formed a protestant church. The Orthodox Exarchate is a different thing and was established in 1970 for people who didn't participate in the first movement.
The Antiochian Church has a diocese but it's byzantine and most of the faithful are ethnic Arabs. I don't know if they'll establish a western rite mission, I think they need to have people to join it.

I know there was a Polish National Catholic Church and they were Orthodox for a short period of time.

Remie,
Just a quick comment. The word you were looking for in the above quote is IS not WAS.

That is, there IS a Polish National Catholic Church. I pass St Casimir's Polish National Catholic Church on the way home from work every day.

As for them being Orthodox, I wouldn't know about that.

David

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear Friends,

Actually, the Polish National Catholic Church was NEVER Orthodox, but it did adopt the Nicene Creed without the Filioque and gave prominence to the Epiclesis in their liturgies.

They are in close contact with the Antiochian Orthodox Church, but they are also close to the "Polish Pope" .

The Pope has received a number of married Polish National Catholic priests into his jurisdiction where they still exercise their priestly roles with their wives, the Pope recognizes their Orders etc.

The only outstanding issue, apart from actual Communion of course, with Orthodoxy, is the Polish National Catholic insistence on considering Baptism and Confirmation as one sacrament and the Scriptures as the seventh sacrament.

The PNCC have also added a few feasts to their calendar that might raise a few RC eyebrows such as that of Jerome Savonarola, Jan Hus and Peter Waldo.

Perhaps by the time ALL the kinks can be worked out between those two Churches, those people will have been formally canonized by Rome .

Alex

A couple of corrections and clarifications...

It is true that feast days of post-schism Western saints have been removed from the kalendar used in the Western Rite Vicariate (essentially the pre-Vatican II universal Roman kalendar with Benedictine features).

The bread used in Western Orthodox Masses is in technically leavened - however it is made in such a way that they look and taste and feel exactly like unleavened hosts.

The Trisagion is not at all a normal feature of the Western Rite usage of Antioch. It was in the Roman Mass approved by Moscow for use in Dr. J.J. Overbeck's proposed Western Rite Orthodox Church in the 19th century. As with the old Roman Rite, forms of the Trisagion is only used during the Office of Prime, as well as in the Reproaches of Good Friday.

The English Rite BCP type Mass is that of "St. Tikhon" not "Tychon."

Although Tikhonite parishes are the majority, a number of parishes do use the Gregorian (Roman/Tridentine) Mass, made up of people from all different Christian backgrounds (Roman Catholic, Anglican, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, etc.).

Benjamin Andersen

Please excuse the gross grammatical errors in the above message - I really should read the message before sending it off into oblivion.

Ben Andersen