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I don't have the pleasure of knowing Hritzko - though I should like to. I do know the Administrator, and I can bear witness that the possibility of convincing the Administrator to worship the Ukrainian nationalists is so remote as to require no discussion!
However, I think that Hritzko is on to something. I did not realize myself that the Pittsburgh Metropolia had failed to give any support to the Eparchy of Mukachevo in the time of greatest need - the ideology of the Pittsburgh Metropolia is flexible, and at the time the leadership of that Church was pushing the assimilationist agenda to the point of appearing to deny even the existence of any specific place of origin of their Church. But I should have managed to assemble the relevant data. The more fool me.
The Administrator suggests that this failure to support the Eparchy of Mukachevo has consequences and that one of them is, or should be, the realization of historical guilt. To that the Adminstrator responds that he personally was responsible for none of it (which is almost certainly true) and then compares it to the failure of the National Council of Churches (true but irrelevant; the cases are not parallel).
However, Hritzko's comment is not directed at individuals - there are people in the Pittsburgh Metropolia who were not even born at the time in question and cannot possibly be responsible as individuals for what did and did not happen. But the Pittsburgh Metropolia is a moral person and as such can be held collectively responsible for this failure.
There isn't much that Pittsburgh can do about it at this late date. But psychologically it is probable that this failure is one of the underlying causes of the antipathy that some Ruthenians seem to have for the Ukrainians. So my thanks to Hritzko for bringing this to our attention.
Incognitus

Greg,

Please try cutting and pasting urls instead of typing them - it's a nusiance to figure out where the error is when one gets a 404 (page not found) message. For the record, "ua" not "va" indicates Ukraine. The correct version of the url which you posted above is:

Bishop Margitych of Mukachevo - Obituary - corrected link [ugcc.org.ua]

But, for the record, the link takes one to an article regarding the beatification of Blessed Vasil Hopko - not the obit of Kyr Ivan Marghitych.

As the Administrator has noted, that may be the case, but can you point to the documentation please? There have definitely been periods where there was a division of opinion among the hierarchs and clergy as to whether the Eparchy should become subject to the Metropolitinate of L'viv, but your comments suggest that it was the overwhelming consensus.

Is that the imperialistic (oops, I meant imperial :rolleyes: ) "we"?

The (Ukrainian)Institute for Church History (ICH) does indeed include the Eparchy of Mukachevo in its listing of the jurisdictions of the UGCC; however, let's keep in mind that the ICH is not the determinant of which canonical jurisdiction belongs to which Church sui iuris. Also, note that, while it lists Mukachevo in its organizational chart, it is nowhere referenced in the textual material on the UGCC history. In fact:

hmm, don't see Mukachevo there

There is no question that Bishop Margitych was a supporter of the UGCC and, in fact, was probably the leader of the UGCC-oriented faction within the Eparchy. However, notably, Rome decided, in 1993, that the Eparchy would remain Byzantine Ruthenian in ecclesiality. The two auxiliaries, Bishop Josyf Holovach and Bishop Margitych, were assigned pastoral responsibility, respectively, for the Rusyn and Hungarian faithful and the Ukrainian faithful within the Eparchy. Further, within the Eparchy, the Divine Liturgy is served in Church Slavonic, Hungarian, or Ukrainian, in consideration of the Eparchy's mixed ethnicity.

I sincerely hope that numbers 2 and 3 are intended to be tongue-in-cheek, as opposed to the incredible arrogance that they suggest.

BTW, if you'd like to better understand the Eparchy of Mukachevo, see:

Greek Catholic Eparchy of Mukachevo [rusyn.org] .

Many years,

Neil

Neil, if that is the case, why do all of the clergy from that Eparchy who have emigrated to North America serve in the UGCC? All of the younger clergy, without exception, most married, serve in the UGCC when emigrating. Several US and Canadian UGCC bishops have sponsored priests from Mukachevo-Uzhorod to come over and sponsor seminarians to study abroad.

So these immigrant priests of Mukachevo-Uzhorod obviously feel more comfortable with the UGCC identity outside of their homeland rather than the Pittsburgh Metropolia.

I have personally known three priests from Mukachevo-Uzhorod, one being my former pastor, and all married. I never heard them refer to themselves as anything other than Ukrainian Catholic. The close working relationship of Bishops Borecky and Rusnak in Canada are well known.

The bishops of this eparchy vote in the UGCC Synod, and regardless of what microchurch sui iuris Rome has boxed them into on paper, according to Byzantine ecclesiology if you participate as a voting hierarch synodally, you belong to that church. I believe Bishop Semedi and Bishop Margytych both voted in the elections of His Beatitudes Miroslav Ivan and Lubomyr.

There are Eastern religious houses, Studite,
Redemptorist, and Basilian within that eparchy who report to L'viv. Many of the seminarians now study at the UCU. The close ties and mutual support between Uzhorod and L'viv cannot be overlooked.

Dear Tony,

I appreciate your geopolitical analysis, but I fail to see how it relates to the Zakarpattia (Oblast) region of Ukraine .

I must admit, I do have occassional visions of 'The Administrator' wearing a burka and throwing Molotov Cocktails at the local 'Prosvita' (Ukrainian Cultural Reading Society) center in Pennsylvania , but then I realize that this is just imagery in my head . I hope it is, because until WW2, this icon of Ukrainian-Ruthenian renaissance was equally espoused by the Carpatho-Rusyns .

Tony, to better understand the history of the Ukrainians in the Carpathian mountains, I would suggest that you (and perhaps the administrator also) perhaps read some 'standard' history books first. A forum member recently suggested the following two books:

The History of Ukraine
By: Robert Paul Magosci - University of Toronto Press

A Historical Atlas of Ukraine
By: Robert Paul Magosci - University of Toronto Press

In these current books available on Amazon.com, the author clearly states that the Rusyns of the Carpathian mountains are part of the larger Ruthenian group known as Ukrainians - very much like Podollians, Zaporrizhia Kozaks, Volhynians, and others. These Ruthenians are united by a common history and language. The evolution of the Churches in both the Mukachevo and Priajshiv (Presov) Eparchies of the Greek-Catholic Church are well covered in an objective manner.

After reading the books you come to realize that the promotion of a 'Rusyn' identity is not incongruent with the promotion of a 'Ukrainian' one. The vast majority of historians and sociologists would agree. One identity is not exclusive of the other and very much the same. Even in Slovakia this has been the majority opinion from for over 4 generations.

Again, I thank you for your geopolitical analysis, but please note that the only place where Ruthenian ethnocide (self inflicted) has taken place has been in the USA Byzantine Metropolia and the Slovak Republic - this is well documented. The 'Ruthenian spirit' is alive and well within the greater UGCC, both here in North America and in Western Zakarpattia Oblast, Ukraine.

The Muscovite's (Russian) repression of Ukrainian ethnicity, culture, religion, and society was brutal and well enforced by the Czars. The Soviets continued these represive policies and it ultimately resulted in the worst case of genocide in this past century; 7,000,000 - 10,000,000 Ukrainians died in one year alone for wanting to re-establish their nation.

Repeating unsubstantiated claims of 'ethnic repression' in Zakarpattia Oblast, Ukraine, is unworthy of a Christian forum. The Soviet Russians committed GENOCIDE against the Ukrainian peoples.

Hritzko

Hartujsh ! - SKOB !

It would appear that there was a problem with the above link for the obituary of Bishop Margitych of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church - Mukachevo Eparchy. Please see corrected link above.

Sorry about the confusion.

Hritzko

Randy,

I nowhere said that there wasn't a UGCC-oriented group or party within the Eparchy. In fact, if that wasn't clear from my post, it certainly was inferred in my comments regarding Bishop Margytych.

Bishop Rusnak served what is officially a Slovak - not Ruthenian - Eparchy; nor did I suggest that working relationships might not exist or should be verboten. And what of Chmilar and Pazak, do they not have a close working relationship? One hopes they do.

Even Hritzko's prior posts (not on this particular thread, but in earlier ones) have acknowledged that their participation in the UGCC Synod is as "observers". "Ecclesiology" does not make one "belong" to a Church; like it or not - consider it a Latin legalism or whatever - being a hierarch of a canonical jurisdiction that Rome formally has designated as a sui iuris entity of a particular Byzantine ecclesiality pretty much decides to which one "belongs". That is reality, vis-a-vis wishfulness.

From the UGCC website, reporting on the Synod of UGCC Bishops held in late 2003:

(emphasis added)

Are these not UGCC religious? If so, then that they report to L'viv is appropriate, regardless of their geographical situs.

And Bishop John Michael did at least a portion of his seminary training at St. Gregory's (Melkite) Eparchial Seminary; it isn't a basis for us to declare the Eparchy of Canton a suffragn see to that of Newton. The Melkites have also trained deacons from several other Byzantine jurisdictions; it doesn't change who they are or the jurisdiction to which they belong.

Close ties and mutual support are to be admired and encouraged. It has been the hallmark of our (Melkite) relationship with our Sister Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) in the Middle East and elsewhere for a long time now and we have found it to be a fruitful and blessed position from which to proceed. I hope and pray that any such relationship between the Eparchy and the UGCC continues, as it cannot help but be beneficial, particularly to the smaller Church. I would hope that the UGCC would not see its smaller sister as an entity to be absorbed - because then one would wonder - what's next? The Byelorusyn Church, the Russian Church, both only steps ahead of the near-extinct Georgian Church? Shades of what was done to Churches under the aegis of the Communist-engineered ROC. I don't think that the loss of ecclesially distinctive Eastern Catholic Communions is in the best interests of the traditions and diversity that constitute the Catholic lobes of the Other Lung.

Many years,

Neil

Greg,

The link now works - but, as I already noted above :rolleyes:

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

I appreciate your comments. However role of churches in Romania is integral to this thread as you shall see.

Hritzko

Alex (Orthodox Catholic) sent me an e-mail sharing his opinions on this issue and has given me permission to post them in this thread. It shows, at least, that Hritzko�s opinions are his opinions and not the opinions of all Ukrainians.

I will post again on this thread in a bit.

Dear DJS,

Much of the information concerning the political orientation of the various bishops is available from the Ukrainian Catholic University's archives department in Lviv. The materials that they have on file are comprehensive and available for a nominal fee on microfilm and/or digital format.

The Ruthenian bishops of the Carpathians who were Magyarphiles were very similar in mind to those of Galicia who were pro-Polish crown. In other words, they measured their 'professional' success based on how close they could transform their Ruthenian Orthodox faithfull into good Latin rite Hungarians (Carpathians) or Poles (Galicia).

In Galicia they often completely transformed themselves into Latin Rite Rusyns known simply as 'Latinnyky' . These Galician Ruthenians were the first to assimmilate into North American Roman Catholic Churches when they arrived. Often they just attended Polish Roman Catholic Churches. There is a good piece about the rapid assimmilation of these 'Latinnyky' in 'the history of Ukrainian in Ontario, Canada' (available on line).

The Magyar (Hungarian) language is very different when compared to 'standard' Ukrainian . Unlike the Poles, as a rule the Hungarians did not want everyone to assimmilate into their culture and church rite. They only wanted the best and brightest to assimmilate, and the rest to remain as a minority class which they could use as a subserviant working caste of peoples.

The Austro-Hungarian empire used the following approach to keeping their Kingdom: (1) identify as many sub-ethnic groups as possible, (2) grand each group full rights and a limited amount of regional autonomy, (3) never permit the groups to unite by pitting them against each other, (4) assimmilate the elite into the ruling class if possible (ie: Hungarians and/or Austrians).

Magyarphile Ruthenian bishops have been the main reason for the radicalism of the Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox (ie; ACROD in USA, and UOC-MP) adherants who view them as anti-Ruthenian/Ukrainian, and anti-Orthodox. Electing Greek-Catholic Magyarphile bishops only further opens the gap between the Apostolic churches in the Carpathians. There are centuries of history that just seem to be repeating themselves.

Hritizko

Tim,

Yes - I agree with Incognitus. This was not an obscenity or insult, but more of parody of the times - late 19th vs early 20th vs early 21st centuries.

Hritzko

My comments relate to the oppressed becoming the oppressor, the Ukrainians are not allowing the Rusins what they themselves (the now Ukrainians) had.
I am quite familiar with Magocsi. Isn't he the one you refer to derisively as "Hungarian Professor" earlier?

Do you really believe this? I have gone over your posts and I can't see how you can in good conscience write this and expect anyone to believe you.
I have not written anything about ethnocide other than of the non-Jewish Palestinians. Please see my first response above.

As one who has travelled extensively thru Rusin lands (Slovakia, Poland and Hungary) and has been in transCarpathian Ukraine (Uzhhorod), has studied the language and has spoken to many regarding their ethnic identification, I wont buy what you are selling.

There are always failures and they must be addressed. The history of that time is quite complex. It is quite possible that the failure of the Ruthenians in America to act was one of not wanting to see a forced Ukrainization of their ethnic brothers in Europe. Certainly the Ukrainians themselves are not without sin.

--

It seems to me that the clergy who immigrate to America are more comfortable in UGCC because those parishes are so much more ethnic than those in the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church. There is a definite culture gap between the Slavs from central Europe and Americans. I know that if I moved to Japan I would probably be happier worshipping at a very ethnic Russian Orthodox Church than I would at a Japanese Roman Catholic Church.

I have no official information on the issue, but I understand that clergy from Mukachevo/Uzhorod must have a clear grasp of English before even being considered for service in America (one cannot minister in a language they don�t understand). Further, the UGCC is open to taking married priests whereas the Pittsburgh Metropolia still seems to be dead set against them. Also, the �action plan� is different. Hritzko noted that one of the ways to keep the UGCC in North America alive is to import people from Europe. To serve them one should logically import priests from wherever they are willing to come from.

--

Hritzko�s position here seems to be: �You people from Transcarpathia do not have the right to determine your self-identity. You will be who we tell you to be. We have decided that you are Ukrainians. Now shut up and be good Ukrainians�.

This is how Hritzko comes across. It is this kind of arrogance that generates ill will. I recommend that Hritzko simply acknowledge that Carpatho-Rusins have the right to exist and to determine their own ethnic identity.

I submit that there is no overriding Ukrainian identity that embraces all of the separate ethnic groups that exist within modern Ukraine. Hritzko seems to be attempting to raise the Galician ethnicity to an umbrella identity for all the peoples of Ukraine. If so, it doesn�t work because there are many who consider themselves to be Ukrainian who do not accept the Galician measuring stick as one that can apply to them.

Point of clarification: I provided the name of a priest who is a professor at the seminary in Uzhorod. He is not my contact for information regarding Uzhorod / Mukachevo. I am confident of how he and those at the seminary will respond, but it has been a few years since I�ve spoken with him. My information is from the priests who host seminarians and priests from Uzhorod / Mukachevo for the summer. I do hope that Hritzko calls the seminary and asks unbiased questions.

I guess my question is why this "discussion" is continuing.

It's not really a very illuminating debate, since it's one guy espousing an almost stereotypical extreme Ukrainian chauvinist line Vs. a group of other people -- some Rusyns, some not -- disputing his facts and his reasoning on a series of fronts.

Of concern to all of us Eastern Catholics is that both the Ukrainian Catholic Church, which pushes the ethnic church model, and the Byzantine Ruthenian Church, which pushes the assimilationist model, are losing members. And the loss appears to have been pretty dramatic over the past 10 or 20 years.

For the record, I don't see any evidence that these folks are causing any major growth spirits in the corresponding Orthodox jurisdictions.

So they are simply lost to us, probably forever.

While I have some serious doubts as to whether Eastern Christianity will ever have much resonance in this Western culture, I do think this little ethnic battle that I've been an active participant in is an example of one cause for the declining membership.

The back and forth has been fascinating to me (and, I trust, to some of the other participants). But this battle will never end.

--tim

Tim raises some excellent points.

Yes, both the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church are loosing people at a frightening rate.

No, they are not joining on of the Orthodox Churches. The problem of membership loss is just as acute in the Orthodox Churches.

It appears that the majority of adults who were baptized into a Byzantine Christian Church (Catholic and/or Orthodox) now worship in Roman Catholic or Protestant parishes or nowhere at all.

The question of Eastern Christianity having resonance in a Western culture is always an interesting one. I think it does (yet I know many who believe it does not and can not).

The Church�s job is not to promote ethnicity (although it does have a responsibility to minister to peoples of all ethnicities). The Church�s job is to proclaim the Gospel and bring all people to Christ.