www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Roman Dioceses move to ordain more deacons

There is no substitute for asking the Lord of the harvest for more workers.

As part of our part in recruiting:

Our Archdiocese opened a nomination process where parishioneers nominated men for the priesthood, religious life and diaconate and women for the religious life. The nominees where informed of there nomination and given time to pray and reflect on a possible vocation. I don't have direct results from this effort. Overall the number of seminarians are up.

Recruit RC's to the BCC. Religious orders do it why not the Eastern Churches? I don't consider the practice prosletyzing.

Paul

Dear Paul,

In fact, in places like Brazil, Ukrainian Basilians and other religious Orders are recruited to serve in the Latin Church.

The problem with celibacy there is that the culture affirms one's manhood in relation to having a wife and many children . . .

And I understand that there is hardly anything the RC church needs to do to get our Basilians and Salesians used to Latin devotions . . .

Alex

First - I really don't believe that allowing the ordination of married men will solve any problems in vocational shortages. Married men have been allowed to be ordained as Deacons for a very long time and we have no great waiting lists of men applying for the diaconate in the Latin Church.

Second - I find it odd that Eastern Catholics should care so much about the Latin Church changing its traditions (small "t") whilst they fight to have the Latin Churhc leave their traditions and Traditions alone.

You don't want the "Latin-ization" of your Eastern Churches and parishes. Yet here many are advocating for the "Eastern-ization" of the Latin Church.

Agreement or disagreement with the requirement for priestly celibacy aside - is not this matter one for the Latin Church to decide for herself? Just as many wish that the Latin Church would back off and let the Eastern Churches resume, unfettered, the tradition of the East to allow the ordination of married men?

Can you really argue for a change in the Latin Church when you don't want Latins aruging for change in your Church?

Dear Carole:

Latins in this Forum have been "reminding" our Eastern confreres exactly the same observation you just made!

But we were not successful in receving even just an acknowledgment at all!

Perhaps, we should line up behind you and, under your leadership, we preach to the stubborn the beauty of priestly celibacy!

Amado

Dear Carole,

Welcome to the Forum!

First of all, I respectfully disagree that having married priests in the Latin Church won't help the vocations crisis.

Every married Protestant minister who becomes an RC priest is a God-send to many Latin dioceses.

There are also many priests who have left the Latin priesthood to get married - thousands in fact - and who are petitioning the Church to allow them to return. The Church won't, and there are canons etc. But the Latin Church can change the canons - it has little problem changing other canons of the Ecumenical Councils.

But be that as it may . . .

Your comment about how we Easterners shouldn't be getting involved in Latin Church affairs - it was only me who was voicing my opinion and the reason I did is because I am close to RC's, having a mother who was baptized an RC and having gone to RC colleges etc.

But the Latin Church has been telling us Easterners that our tradition of a married priesthood is wrong for a very long time.

Celibacy is something that belongs to the very essence of the priesthood, period, we've been told.

We've had difficulty having married priests in North America for some time - and why? Is it not because the RC bishops don't want the headache of having their own priestly candidates bother them with "If they can't, why can't we?"

And, frankly, I think I'm correct to say that a general Latin (and other) lay view is that married priests in the Latin Church would have helped the problems with abusive priests. Not because there wouldn't be bad apples among married priests, because there are. But because there would have been fewer places for the bad apples to hide among a married priesthood.

Whether that's true or not - that is certainly a general impression of many Latins I've spoken with - and read about.

So we Easterners have always been told about how we are somehow substandard for having married priests and shouldn't have them.

How is it that when someone like me tells the Latin Church the benefits of having married priests, I'm told that I'm getting involved in Latin affairs?

That's not just you, but others as well.

My grandfather was a married priest, with seven children.

I grew up with both after they came here from Ukraine in 1966.

My grandmother gave me a most pious example (an example that was better, in my view, than many celibate priests I met in school).

She prayed half an hour, morning and night, recited the Marian rosary in the morning and the Chaplet of Mercy in the afternoon. She attended Mass daily, either with my grandfather or else walked to our local RC church.

She gave me great advice - and the parishioners benefited from her advice as well, the women preferred to speak with her than with my grandfather.

And she completely organized my grandfather's life for him - and often told him in no uncertain terms when what he was doing was inappropriate etc.

When I told her I was thinking about becoming a celibate priest, she said, "Not while I'm alive, you'll be a married priest and that is that!"

A married priesthood is not just about "giving in" to sexual needs. It is about a great support to a male priest in his life and work.

And, frankly, the majority of those defenders of priestly celibacy are, I've found, traditional, married Catholics.

Celibacy is not just about self-discipline. It is about the difficulty of working with people who often don't understand or support you. The laity don't and the bishop often doesn't.

The Presbytera usually does. She carries her husband-priest's Cross with him, making it a little lighter.

Alex

Uh ... Uh-oh. Me thinks I should have kept my observations to myself. Do I need my Gallagher-style raincoat for the tomatoes that will soon be headed in my general direction?

Dear Carole:

No raincoats neded!

Just learn how to sway and to duck occasionally!

Amado

(And tomatoes, rotten or not, have been proven to be good for the heart! )

Carole

As you have discovered this comes up time after time after time after ........ :p .

We will never agree

I have sympathies on both sides of this discussion - and being honest I don't think there is any easy answer.

The RC Church has spoken - celibacy is for Priests - and yet .... well there are married RC Priests who are serving in the Church.

However - back to Deacons - the Permanent variety in the RC Church.

They have been in existence in the US for many years - over here we are slowly getting used to the idea of them. Our Arch Diocese has it's first Class of 15 in their pre- formation year - but there are still many questions to be asked and answered about their use. Are they to be appointed after Ordination to a Parish [ where they live] or to the Deanery serving a group of 8 or 9 Parishes , or even on a Diocese wide appointment ? How are they to be used - in parishes , in Hospitals or where ? If they are appointed to Parishes - what happens when there are 2 or more in the Parish ?

Nope - it's not an easy situation.

Anhelyna

Alex,

I never said that allowing married men to be ordained is a bad thing. I do not believe that it is.

However, neither is the requirement for celibacy a bad thing.

I believe that both have their merits and their demerits and both are venerable and sound traditions.

But just as the Latin Church should keep its nose clear of the issue as regards the Eastern Churches so should the Eastern Churches keep their noses clear as regards the Latin Church.

The fact remains that this is a tradition in the Latin Church and it is unlikely to change any time in the foreseeable future.

My problem lies in the presentation of this issue ot the Latin Church as a definite solution for the issue of a men not answering the vocational call.

I do not believe that it will "fix" the "problem". The solution is better catechesis and a more universally orthodox practice of the faith among Latin Catholics. Families whose practice of the faith is lazy, lax or governed by self will not produce young men and women willing to hear let alone answer a calling to a religious vocation.

At least not here in the United States. There is a dearth of pastors in many of the mainstream Protestant denominations as well. Many Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist and Presbyterian churches are having problems filling their pulpits. And they've always had married clergy. In fact to the point where not only can married men be ordained but men who are unmarried at ordination can be married after they are ordained. And a pastor whose wife has passed away is under no obligation to remain unmarried. Their pastors can even divorce and remarry.

Yet still this is not incentive enough for young men (or women in many cases) to answer the call to a pastoral position.

There are many issues to solving the "vocational crisis" in the Latin Church. Allowing the ordination of married men is unlikely to be the answer. What is needed is more difficult than simply that.

As for the Latin Catholics who believe that ordination of married men would have obviated the sexual abuse scandals. The only Latin Catholics i have met who say that are groups like Voice of the Faithful and other modernist groups who wish to change the Church into some secular-like organisation that governs itself not with the will of God but by the will of the people as expressed in voting.

And we see where that has gotten groups like the Episcopalians, Anglicans and Lutherans.

No where I think that any Catholic, East or West, believes the Church ought to go.

As for the issue of the wife being help-meet to her husband and helping to carry the cross of his vocational calling.

Most certainly that is the ideal situation.

But something in the divorce rate of Protestant ministers in the United States (which is quite high) tells me that this would be difficult in the extreme.

And can you imagine the scandal to the parish when their priest divorces?

I'm not saying that it cannot and does not work. Certainly it does and it is a wonderful thing.

But it isn't the one-stop solution that people envision it to be.

It is also the purview of the Latin Church to change or not to change this tradition and discipline.

I have a feeling that if a group of Latin Catholics were sitting around discussing how the Eastern Churches should change their traditions regarding priestly celibacy and marriage that you'd be madder than a wet hen.

I just don't see a distinction between Latin Catholics telling Eastern Catholics that priestly celibacy should be the norm for all Catholic Churches. And Eastern Catholics telling Latin Catholics that a married priesthood should be the norm for all Catholics.

Neither group really has any say in the workings of the other. And neither tradition is inherently superior to the other.

Bishops who follow that practice should be taken to the Vatican woodshed for fraternal correction.

Carole,

Welcome.

Your posts are sound. Much of them sound like Vatican II. I just want to make a couple of points.

There about 14,000 deacons (mostly married) in the U.S. I don't know how long the waiting lines are, but last summer in my Archdiocese, that is relatively small, 75 men were ordained to the diaconate during one liturgy.

I have no fear of Easternization of the RC. We are already Eastern (with a few extra parts). The first seven ecumenical councils that shaped our faith were held in he East. We are so emmersed in Eastern tradition that we cannot recognize it as "Eastern".

Peace be with you.

Paul

The answers to those are relatively easy, as most diocese in the US have quite a number of serving deacons and I'm sure your bishops will be evaluating the US experiences.

The answer is 'all of the above'. The Bishop will examine the needs of his diocese and the abilities\gifts of the deacons he has accepted into his service.

Some deacons will be assigned to parishes, others will serve a vicariate\deanery of a number of parishes. Most deacons will do service work in hospitals, prisons and with the poor, in addition to their service at the Altar. These will be assigned by the Bishop based, again on the needs of the faithful and the gifts of the deacons.

Some parishes (like my own) will have 2 or more deacons. Ours assist at various Massess, as well as perform services like Baptism and Marriage preparation classes.

Dear Alex,

I'm afraid I must disagree. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but there are many, many more 'candidates' who are completely unsuitable to 'export'.

Whenever a Synod takes place in Ukraine the Western bishops are besieged by those volunteering to serve the Ukrainian diaspora - as long as it is Western Europe, North America or Australia. As soon as someone mentions the need in Eastern Ukraine or Kazakhstan they suddenly lose their "missionary zeal". Do I need to spell out why they prefer West to East? My bishop, who could use a priest or two, says as soon as he finds someone volunteering to go to Kazakhstan he will bring him here.

I'm not sure about the most recent seminary graduates, but there is also a culture of "the pastor is king" and "the village takes care of its pastor". This can often go so far as to pastors declining the services of a deacon because that would mean having to share the takings.

There are some good one who have come west, and I've had the privilege of getting to know a few. I've also met some who have come west, leaving behind families, to make money and maybe find a parish in need of a priest, then get their legal situation sorted out.

The Orthodox are not in better shape. While our Orthodox parish had Divine Liturgy once a month, served by a visiting priest, there were at least 3 Orthodox priests working in the area. Instead of taking turns serving the community they all had the attitude "I will serve if you make me pastor".

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Dear Kobzar,

Ukies will be Ukies!

But many of our parishes who have Ukie priests from Ukie-land are very happy with them.

And I was at the OCA conference here, just got back.

I think we should all just join the OCA!

Alex