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Slava Isusu Christu!

Thanks Mexican!

And Alex economia can only be used within the context of the Church - by the Apostolic Authority of the Bishop who is the Chief Priest of the Eparchy. If economia was ever used falsly such as in the ordination of a "bishop" for the Anglican Church; either the bishop was deceived or he knowingly decided through this un-canonical action to seperate himself from the Eastern Church because he would be knowingly ordaining a member of a heretical body.

Anglo-Catholicism was a noble effort in times past read: "The Practice of Religion" by Rev Fr. Archibald Knowles. His exposition of the dream of Anglican Catholicism is magnificent. But now the Anglo-Catholic movement is plagued by women priests, the homosexual movement, and arch-liberal politics. Hardly worthy decendants of such a pious minister such as Rev. Knowles and his company. The reality is that what the Anglican Catholic movement was seeking was really to become an Anglican Orthodox Catholic Church. But that dream is gone, because Anglo-Catholics have always been the minority in the Anglican Communion and they have since been divided and conquered by the "new regime" of arch-heretics who like to play dress up and swing censors. There are always hold-outs, but they are insignificant and are viewed as quaint old dinousaurs who need to eventually "change or die" to quote the "illustrious" Rt. Rev. Spong. :rolleyes:

The Anglican Church is not monolithic, BUT it does have a theology of communion. And unless these "orthodox" Dioceses in ECUSA seperate from the Communion and are received into the Orthodox or Catholic Church their dream of being "orthodox" is just a dream. Bishop Iker cannot tout "orthodoxy" and be in communion with heretics; I am sure he knows this, but sentimentality keeps many stuck in the illusion that the Anglican Church is still a constituent member of the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

The seeds of self-destruction were planted in the beginning of the Church of England's creation and loss of the Catholic faith and the sacrificing priesthood; one may even say its demise was sealed by the blood of the English Catholic martyrs. What ever one may believe sincere and devout Anglicans are in dire straits and let us pray that they will find a home in either the Catholic or Orthodox Church.

In Christ,


Rob

Marshal,
There is an old addage which says, " you cant give what you dont have". I seem to remember that in the case with Matthew Parker, the bishops where not bishops at all and therefore could not pass on "apostolic succession"!

While it is true that some new things have developed with the old catholic bishops, the polish national church, I would advise you that if you really care about being in line with apostolic succession you have to be careful as to who your ordaining bishop is. Is he validly ordained or not.

I dont know if the Orthodox also require the intention of a sacrificing priesthood, which was lacking in the intention of Matthew Parker and all subsequent anglican orders which in my estimation makes all of them invalid whether done by a legitimate bishop or not.

Stephanos I
PS And what of the state of the anglican communities today? Can they even be considered to hold sound and orthodox faith. You might have to ask yourself that question too.
Praying for you to receive the enlightement of the Holy Spirit.

There is no serious doubt that at least one or two of Matthew Parker's consecrators had been validly ordained to the episcopate. The question, however, is whether they in turn validly ordained Matthew Parker to the episcopate. Incognitus

Dear Friends,

One problem with Catholics and Orthodox discussing Anglicans is that we tend to see Anglicans as a homogeneous group, much as our own Churches are in terms of faith etc.

And that is not the case with Anglicans, never was, never will be.

Even with "Anglo-Catholics," there is not one single, uniform characterization of them.

As a matter of fact, many "Anglican Catholics" are ready to condemn Anglo-Catholicism for what they say is its "wishy-washiness."

There are Anglican Catholics who accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils etc.

These can be found among the "continuing" churches - churches that are no longer in communion with the rest of Anglicanism and indeed condemn it for being liberal etc.

By the same token, there are traditional Latin Catholics who would feel truly out of place in numerous "liberal" Latin Catholic parishes and areas.

One may truly speak of a single Catholic faith - but that unity in the Latin Church is today lost when it comes to local interpretation and praxis.

While I appreciate greatly traditional Latin Catholicism, I grew up in Catholic institutions that were clearly liberal in terms of their interpretation of Catholic faith and morality. They considered me to be a "traditional Catholic" because I told them my Church celebrated the Liturgy facing East etc. I could never have too much in common with them from a devotional point of view as a result.

(And, Teen Logo, the day you become a Catholic and begin to practice what you say you believe yourself is the day I'll take you seriously too ).

I know a number of traditional Anglicans, as has been mentioned.

I've helped these Anglicans become Anglican-Use Catholics while others became Orthodox.

These Anglicans have always known the true Catholic faith. They defended it while still Anglicans and many of them remain Anglicans while defending it - an uphill battle to be sure.

I just felt that some of the comments expressed here did not adequately reflect the full reality of the faith and struggles of the Anglicans I have come to know, respect and love - both inside and outside Anglican churches.

I am sorry if I did not appreciate the "charitable" nature of those posts, designed, as they were said to be, to proclaim the fullness of truth to the Anglicans.

They could have been more charitable in recognizing the fact that there are Anglicans who already know the fullness of that truth and who struggle within a bad ecclesial situation against all odds to affirm it.

Alex

Dear Alex,
I know that I severely cut your quote down, to just the beginning, but I think the beginning says what you mean.

For those Anglicians that have not broke communion as the "continuing" churches have, they can be painted with a broad brush because they are no better than the lowest of their Church.

That is, I know there are Anglician Dioceses that will not ordain women, but they stay in communion with those that do, so they are no better. Actually I think they are worse, a very bad witness, hypocrites.

As for, as you said.

They still share much in common with the Anglicans whom they broke communion with.

They still hold to the three pillars, Scripture, Reason, and Tradition. Even if they recognize the 7 councils, they still will temper them with Reason, will they not?


David

Dear David,

I thought the Catholic Church also held to Scripture, Tradition and Reason?

Has something changed?

If it has, sorry.

But as for the Anglicans who hold communion with those who are, from there point of view, heretical, you are assuming too much.

Perhaps they want to struggle to regain their Church from the heretics, perhaps they won't give up without a fight.

What about those Anglicans who refuse to allow their Primate into their parishes because of the women's ordination issue?

They haven't completely broken off with him, but I understand there are many who are now in talks with Rome about joining the Anglican Use Catholic tradition.

What I'm saying is that we must try and encourage traditional Anglicans in their Catholic orientation.

Ultimately, they will come home to Rome, I believe.

But as Anglicans.

There are also liberal Catholics around today in the U.S. Church and we have both met them.

I know Catholics in my parish that openly support women clergy and have said so to our parish priest's face.

They also openly support gay marriage.

We have a Premier now who is a Catholic who supports gay marriage.

What is the difference between what is going on with traditional Anglicans in their church, then, and what is going on in ours?

Alex

I did not think that the Catholic Church holds to Reason in the same fashion as the Anglican Communion does, I will start a new thread to discuss this.

I could believe this if there was a fight going on, but there isn't. Not on the issue I brought up anyways.

This would be great, but I do not see it happening until Rome does something with the Anglican Use, as there are no priests to serve this except for the handful of ex-Anglican priests that entered the Roman Church as a parish.

It is my understanding that Rome will not allow this any longer and only excepts individuals, not parish bodies.

I could see this happening but only if the Anglican Use is changed to a Rite.

I would submit that your Premier, who calls himself a catholic, is not really a Catholic.

Those who claim to be catholic but do not hold to the Teachings of the Church are not Catholic.

The difference is the stand of the hierarchy.


David

Dear David,

I understand a number of parishes have applied to be accepted to the Anglican Use of the Catholic Church and that they fully expect to be so accepted by Rome. We'll see . . .

The "Anglican Use" is, in fact, like the idea of a "Rite."

The term "Use" was employed for those variations of the Roman Rite in the West in different countries.

Thus, the "Sarum Use" (along with those of Hereford, York and Bangor) in England. There was a Norwegian "Use of Trondheim" that was once present in the Channel Islands.

There are monastic "rites" in the West which are really "liturgical Uses" or variants on the Roman Rite (five I believe).

Certainly, Rome wants to avoid "western uniatism" (that's all it needs, right? ).

But the traditional Anglicans are really under the gun these days and, as Marshall said, Cardinal Ratzinger gave his personal blessing to those Episcopal bishops and priests that gathered last week to discuss joining the Catholic Church as a body.

Rome's hand in this matter will be forced by circumstances, I believe, and it will have to accept entire Anglican/Episcopal parishes into the "Bark of Peter."

There already are, and have been for years, Anglican parishes that not only have all the RC devotions and "trimmings" ( ), but also commemorate the Pope in their liturgy.

I once attended a wedding at an Anglo-Catholic church that did this.

I asked the priest later why he commemorated the "Pope of Rome?"

He said, "Because that is his title . . ."

Alex

I can understand this. I am to Catholicism what Anastasios is to Orthodoxy, it seems. (Hope that comparison isn't too off the mark, Anastasios!)

But I'm coming along. I attend Mass every Sunday now. Just gotta work up the courage to call the priest.

And Alex, you'll love this: the parish is named Our Lady of Perpetual Help, so you can guess what icon they have prominently displayed to the left of the altar.

Logos Teen

Why do you need to work up the courage to call him if you've worked up the courage to go to Mass every Sunday? Chase him down after Mass!!

Greetings from a new member to this forum!

I've read this thread with great interest. Although I was baptized and confirmed as a Catholic, I became an Anglican in my youth (I was looking for "Catholic Lite" - you know, "all of the gilt with none of the guilt" as an infamous Episcopal priest once put it). Thanks be to God, but I later saw the error of my ways and came "home to Rome."

My heart is breaking for the good people who are still in the Episcopal/Anglican Church. I'm praying that they will be led to embrace the ENTIRE Faith and become FULL members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which they profess to believe. I pray for the primates who are meeting in London today, that they will be able to stand firm against immoral forces that are destroying souls within the Anglican Communion. And I also pray that the Holy Father will authorize the establishment of an Anglican Rite. Please join with me in prayer today.

God's peace to everyone on this board!

Dave

Dear Dave,

Rite on!

The Sarum Use is, of course, the Latin Rite as practiced in England.

It was and is very close to the Old Roman Rite and so is but a variation of it - thus the term "Use" or "usage."

The Celtic Rite is quite different and is legitimately referred to as a "Rite."

For now, the Anglicans-in-communion-with-Rome will be able to worship in their own historic liturgical usage. Should the entire Anglican communion one day return to communion with Rome and the fullness of the Catholic faith, then this Church will most certainly become a "particular Church" and even foreseeably a Patriarchate. These issues have always been raised by Catholic-Anglican ecumenical commissions.

The really interesting thing is that for a number of Anglican parishes - their being in communion with Rome won't change ONE IOTA of their current liturgical practice - including the commemoration of the Pope of Rome which they already do.

Also, I once met an Anglican priest who had no parish.

When I asked him why, he said that it "went over to Antioch."

The Antiochian Orthodox Church has no problem with accepting entire Episcopal/Anglican parishes into communion with Orthodoxy.

An acquaintance of mine, Fr. Stephen Walinski of Omaha, Nebraska, did, in fact, "go over to Antioch" with his entire parish. He has brought other parishes over too.

Fr. Walinski uses the Anglican Usage with a leaning toward the full Sarum Use. He also insists on Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament which is allowed in the Western Rite Orthodoxy. He also has a beautiful statue of Our Lady of Walsingham and the final Sunday of each month is dedicated to her in his parish.

Alex

So, Antioch allows entire parishes to convert to Western Orthodoxy, but the Catholic Church doesn't currently allow entire Anglican parishes to come into communion with her. As we know, there are parishes right now (I can think of one in Texas) that've entered the Catholic Church. However, someone on this forum (Alex, maybe?) said that Rome no longer allows this.

Why? In hopes that, like the Orthodox Churches, entire Anglican churches will come into union with Catholicism?

If we had endless time, then I could understand the current Catholic approach to the Anglican churches. But, the Second Coming is closer each day (RayK's gonna be mad at me for that one! )...we don't have an eternity.

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,
It is I who said it, not Alex.

The Catholic Church will accept a whole parish of converts but will do so as individuals, not as a parish.

I do not know when they started this, I believe it was something more recent, like the past 10 years or so.

The issue about the Anglican Use Liturgy are many, I belong to a mail list on the Anglican Use.

There are no seminaries, the are no way to teach new priests added to the fact that anglican priests are married. I believe that the Anglican Use will die out in the next 10 years or so unless Rome does something.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

This would be a shame IMHO. I very much enjoyed my experiences worshipping at one of the first Anglican use parishes - Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston Texas. In many ways, I prefer the flow of their order of worship to the structure of the Novus Ordo Mass of Paul VI.

A seminary friend of mine who was a former Episcopalian went with me and right away pointed to the properly appointed altar with freshly starched altar cloth, matching brocade antependium and chalice veil, and highly polished brass candlesticks and commented "That's how an altar should look!"

Also he was enraptured by their music One of the struggles he had with joining the Catholic church was the poor quality (to him) of much of what passes for "sacred song" in contemporary Catholic parishes.

PAX