www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Anglican with Questions about Orders

I believe that the Anglican Use will die out in the next 10 years or so unless Rome does something.


David, the Byzantine Catholic [/QB][/QUOTE]

I pray that Rome does do something, and quickly. Reports coming out of Lambeth this morning do not look good for the conservative, orthodox Anglicans who wish to stand with the clear teaching of Scripture and Tradition. If the primates fail to take decisive action, these faithful souls will have no place to turn. Of course, I believe their "best" course of action is to move from Anglicanism as quickly as the life rafts moved away from the Titanic. I pray that Rome establishes an Anglican Rite to welcome them into the Bark of Peter. (There was a unsubstantiated report that the Vatican has dispatched someone to meet with conservative Anglican leaders to discuss that very thing.)

Failing this course of action, will the Orthodox welcome them into the Western Rite?

Let's keep them in our prayers!

Dear David,

Yes, I think the Anglican Use was permitted by Rome as an interim measure, so as not to toally offend the Anglican hierarchy.

(The Anglicans are already miffed at the Orthodox Western Rite and "going over to Antioch" is said with a sneer, as I understand).

Tactically, if we may speak in these terms, Rome did not wish to appear as if it is "poaching" Anglicans and otherwise enticing them with an Anglican Use etc.

However, if there is an Anglican immigration, I don't see how Rome can refuse them.

I think Rome can justify embracing them on the basis of telling Canterbury: "We'll look after them until such time as you get your act together!"

David, I think you and I are wasted where we are in our Churches - we should be working on an Anglican Use co-opt program. "Bring 'em back Alive (in Catholicism)!"

Alex

Who cares about offending them? Were we "offended" when they came into our country (Ireland) and outlawed the Mass of our Fathers?

This is not about us-and-them anyway. It is about the salvation of souls. Can souls be saved through schism and heresy?

I am having a frustrating day so don't all get mad at once.

LatinTrad

Dear LT,

No, I understand you, Big Guy.

We Ukies feel the same way when Rome doesn't want to offend, well, you know . . .

The priest who really got me "Eastern" is Father Sergius Keleher (he has other titles too) who is now in Dublin in a beautiful parish, St Kevin's, where the Divine Liturgy is also served in Gaelic.

He published a Liturgy booklet in both Ukrainian and Gaelic - quite beautiful.

And he has an icon of St Patrick and our Ukrainian Catholic martyr, Bl. Nicholas Charnetsky who visited Ireland.

If you would meet him, you couldn't tell he was Irish, long flowing beard and all.

He is just so brilliant and knows so much about the Eastern Church it isn't funny.

He is also a sincere Irish patriot and loves Irish traditions and the like.

His Ukrainian and Russian is flawless, and he speaks Gaelic quite fluently.

It is typical of the Irish POV to take the position of the underdog.

Perhaps because they've been underdogs for so long in their history.

We Ukies have always loved the Irish and their vibrant culture.

Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

"And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity."

1 Cor 13:13

And as my mother used to always tell me, "Two wrongs don't make a right and if you say, 'But they make me feel better' I'm going to smack you upside the head!"

In Christ,
mikey.

Alex, thank you for your understanding.

Mikey, thank you for your correction.

Bretheren,
I was priveleged to be in contact with some high level Anglicans worldwide.
Few people know about it but there are about 1000 Clergy and their congregations ready to enter into union with Rome.
Supposedly they are working things out with Rome as we type.
Stephanos I

Sometimes, (being a former Lutheran) I wonder if we should not do the same thing with them. That is create a Lutheran Usage Rite.

As a former Anglican, I pray that it may be so! And I think, Stephanos, that the idea of a "Lutheran Rite" might not be a bad idea for any "High Church" Lutherans who want to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church.

Of course, due to the Oxford Movement, there has been a historic attachment on the "Catholic Tradition" among Anglo-Catholics in the Anglican Communion. Is there such a similar movement among Lutherans?

Dave
"Mere Catholic"

Dear Sir Sea Knight:

Some Lutherans (apparently of the High Church variety as you call them) style themselves as "Evangelical Catholics," whose meaning still escapes me.

They claim that Martin Luther's real intention was MERELY to lead a "reformation" from within the Catholic Church, which might not be farfetch at all.

AmdG

I agree with you, it's quite sad that the Anglican Use liturgy is not offered to more people, specialy former Episcopalian. I believe that both Orthodox and Catholic "Anglican Use" liturgies are bound to extinction (some western-rite parishes have joined the Byzantine Rote recently and this still continues).

In the Roman Church this will happen faster because the Anglican Use is quite like an indult given to private parishes. Priests cannot celebrate it outside them or outside their own congregations.

They claim that Martin Luther's real intention was MERELY to lead a "reformation" from within the Catholic Church, which might not be farfetch at all.

I recall the comment by one of the Protestant ministers who participated in the 1970 liturgical reform in the Roman Church:

"We've finihed the work that Martin Luther began".

:sigh:

Don't despair, LT. Just because a Protestant minister "participated" in the reform of the Mass (and btw, who was this? and how exactly did he participate? don't let rumors disturb you), doesn't really matter. Remember that the Holy Spirit is *still* in charge of our Church and He will never let things get irreversibly bad (we have that on good authority! ).

It might make you feel better to know that this morning I attended the most fantastically orthodox Mass I have seen for quite a while - in Spanish, not Latin, but otherwise, I think you would have loved it. It is a little Mexican church I attend sometimes, near downtown L.A. - the people there are so devoted to the Blessed Sacrament (which is *always* exposed, except during Mass) and "La Virgen de Guadalupe". They sing, they kneel, they kiss the ground in front of the Tabernacle - apparently no one's told them yet that they're only supposed to bow their heads!

It is wonderful - and humbling - to see such faith. And gives you hope for the future of our Church. The Faith is still there, you just have to look a little harder to find it!

Back in the nineteeen-fifties there was a fairly strong pro-Catholic movement among Lutherans in Germany, led by Pastor Max Lachmann (I'm probably mis-spelling that) and others. They published a proposed Order of Mass, which even appeared in English. Those who are interested in a "Lutheran Usage" might attempt to locate a copy. Incognitus

It was attempted in Sweden also with a group of Lutheran Benedictine monks but failed. They came to the realization that they had to enter the Catholic Church. Unfortunately they did not attempt to keep there own "typicon".

Also Max Lackman entered the Catholic Church.
I would be very very interested and tahnkful for being able to get my hands on this liturgy.
Stephanos I

I have heard that the Pope sent a personal envoy to the meetings of conservative Anglicans in Dallas. Wonder what transpired?
Anyone know of this?
Stephanos I