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I have a friend who was a Missouri Synod pastor who thought of himself as an Evangelical Catholic. I attended the liturgy at his parish once and it seemed more "Catholic" than most Novus Ordo masses.
However, he left the ministry some time ago, spent some time with an Orthodox community, left there and the last I heard was in ecclesial no man's land, torn between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I encouraged him to check out Eastern Catholicism but have'nt heard from him for a while...

Daniel,
I know a Missouri Synod Pastor who is wavering between the two.
Stephanos I
I think if we had a Lutheran Usage Rite it would make the transition easier.

Dear Theist Girl:

Yeah, here there are many places with reverent and orthodox Catholic masses, this proves that everything is a cultural problem (what happens in the United States and big cities here).

I think if we had a Lutheran Usage Rite it would make the transition easier.

Why? Having the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Orthodox) or the Latin Mass (for Catholics), why would we need to correct heretical rites of inferior nature?

Dear Mexican,

You say:
Why? Having the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (Orthodox) or the Latin Mass (for Catholics), why would we need to correct heretical rites of inferior nature?

Uhh....because that's exactly what John Paul 2 and the Antiochan Orthodox have instructed!!!

Nestorians and Non-Chalcedonians have had their liturgies incorporated even though they were formerly "heretics." The same goes for the Anglican Prayerbook services that have been used by Anglican Use Catholics and the Western Rite Orthodox.

Mexican, you seem to be wanting to keep people out of the kingdom. Why?

Do you think Jesus would say, "You use words and liturgies that were used by groups who got it wrong. I don't want you in my Church!"

We who are "heretics" were born in these arrangements, we were baptized and taught to love and serve the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is through these liturgies that we came to know Christ. It is Christianity as we know it.

When we finally do come to the point where we realize that we are missing out on the fuller tradition (by God's grace, not necessarily by our due dilligence), the last thing we need is some cocky jerk telling us that we are all wrong, wrong, wrong.

The Holy Father has done an excellent job in making people feel at HOME and I think that is why there is such an influx of converts. You guys are the fulfillment of what we've always wanted and - deep down - always believed.

As much as you might want to believe it, I did not burn papal bulls or thumb my nose at the Holy Father or the Eastern Church. But I did find Christian faith in such Communions whose leaders did. But this is the course that our God placed me on. I'm working on its fulfillment. Be gracious and pray for us.

in Christ,
Marshall

Burning papal bulls? Hmmm. In a part of the USA where I lived for a while (pleasantly, for the most part) the bull roast was a regular social feature of the summertime - quite enjoyable. But a Papal Bull roast? Must think about this. Rare, medium, or well done? Barbecue sauce? Incognitus

I'll pray for those 1000 clergy, so that they can enter the place their faith belongs to, the Catholic Church. If that happens, those will be great news for all Apostolic Christians.

I didn0t say I wanted to keep people out of the Kingdom. I just think that a Lutheran rite would be too much, the Church can't be that broad. If we followed those steps to convert Protestant sects we would have Methodist-Rite Catholics, Methodist Orthoox Vicariate, Lutheran-Rite, what a mess!

BTW, wasn't the Ordo Missae of Paul VI meant to reconcile those Lutherans, conservative reformed pastors, etc, who wished to enter the Catholic Church? It's a very pastoral rite that could fill the spiritual needings of these faithful when celebrated reverently.

About the Orthodox, I still think the Byzantine Rite can fulfill the needings of western faithful. Even the liberal and ex-protestant Evangelical Orthodox Mission, decided to follow it when they were received into the Church.

Dear Mexican,

Well, that is certainly the debate within Orthodoxy today.

There are converts from Anglicanism that I know who, when they become Orthodox for instance, don't want to remember anything about their Anglican past!

But the Anglican Usage - which is really the Sarum Use including elements of the Hereford, York and Bangor Uses in Britain - is, in its "High Church" form, very Catholic indeed. As some have said here, even more "Catholic" it seems than the Novus Ordo!

The Lutherans also have a similar variation in their parishes.

Have you ever been to a Swedish Lutheran Mass? It is very "High Church" and most "Catholic" - Latin Catholics told me they prefer the Swedish Lutheran Rite to the Novus Ordo!

The Swedish Lutherans also have veneration for the Virgin Mary and the Saints - they like the Rosary and I have a book on the Rosary by one of them. I correspond with one Swedish Lutheran Benedictine Abbot. They make the Sign of the Cross etc. The High Church Catholic movement among the Lutherans is also in the other European Lutheran Churches.

The Anglicans and Lutherans of Europe are now, as you know, in full ecclesial communion with one another and they are definitely tending toward greater ceremonial, Patristic study and the like.

Alex

Dear Daniel and Stephanos I

There is an "Evangelical Catholic Church" that has its own website.

They follow a Lutheran Usage with additions, of course, that include invocation of the Saints and their Liturgy is quite beautiful.

http://members.aol.com/EvCathCh/index.HTML

They would like to, I believe, eventually join the Antiochian Orthodox Church as another Western Rite.

Their emblem is actually Luther's seal with the Orthodox Cross on it.

Alex

Dear Friends,

As for Methodists, let's remember that Methodism never initially intended to start a separate church.

It began as a reform movement within Anglicanism.

The Wesley brothers and their friends prayed according to the strict practices of the Book of Common Prayer - and so were called "Methodists" as they followed a methodical form of worship.

Methodism, as a way of life, can be adopted by any Christian.

The Methodism of John Wesley prescribes one-three hours of prayer, morning and night, together with the observance of the three day hours, fasting twice a week, regular attendance at Liturgy and Holy Communion, regular reading of the Scriptures and charitable works.

Yes, sounds like a Protestant plot to overthrow the true faith and Church now, doesn't it?

There are also "High Church" Methodists and there is even one Methodist religious order in the U.S. that I'm aware of.

John Wesley even applied to Constantinople to receive orders as a canonical bishop since England refused to ordain clergy for his mission in the U.S. (See "A Rumour of Bishops")

John Wesley used the Rosary in his daily prayer and preached at Walsingham, England to decry Protestant sins of blasphemy when they destroyed the Marian Shrine there.

On the spot where Wesley preached in Walsingham, there is now a Methodist Church.

One of the best books I've ever read on the Rosary is by the hand of a Methodist Minister, Neville Ward ("Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy") and Methodists contribute regularly to the work of the Ecumenical Society of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Methodist prayerbooks today promote the use of a "Prayer rope" where one is instructed to tie a large knot at one end of a cord, followed by ten smaller knots, and ending with a larger knot at the end.

There is a shrine, as I keep saying, of a Methodist saint near me, Holy Ann Preston ("Holy" a title given her by the local Catholic children).

She prayed two hours daily in her prayer shed, and often longer and was known as a miracle-worker by both Catholics and Protestants alike, both of whom made pilgrimages to her shed and home for years after she reposed.

I was recently contacted by a Methodist lady with cancer who asked if I would take her to Holy Ann's grave.

We should be so lucky as to have a "Methodist Use" Catholic group!

Alex

Alex,

You forgot their auricular confessions, something almost unheard of in the Anglicanism of their time.

Marshall

Dear Marshall,

Excellent point, Big Guy!

Auricular confessions can be found even among the "Catholic movement" in the Reformed Church tradition in Europe - I once read a paper by one of them saying that the absence of auricular confession is a scandal to the Reformed Churches . . .

I think we both agree . . .

But my touchstone for Catholic orthodoxy is the rosary . . .

Just love those beads!

Alex

Alex- good for you; despite certain disagreements we have had perhaps we have more in common than one might think if you love our Lady's beads...
Interesting points about Methodism; they really were a movement toward Catholicism in many ways, a corrective against Calvinist excesses [come to think of it, pretty much all of Calvinism is an excess]. Sanctification became again something which occurs in the believer's heart, not just an imputed righteousness, as the Reformers said. Of course, Wesley went a little off in insisting on an accompanying emotional experience, which has led to all sorts of excesses. And the Methodists today are a mess, at least at the governing level. I know lots of everyday Methodists who are faithful and devout, though.

Alex
Looks interesting but they need to do one of two things:
Either come into union with Rome (which doesnt seem likely) or Orthodoxy.
Otherwise they are just another protestant denomination in the hodge podge of the multitudes.
Stephanos I

Dear Daniel,

You are more than correct.

Somehow, the "Hail Mary" unites us in a way that no other thing can!

Alex