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Admin,

And what happened to we of New England :rolleyes: ?

I'm not quite convinced that we are as ready to cut our ties to our Patriarchate. Certainly, we would have liked to see an American-born Eparch, but our allegiance to our Patriarch has traditionally transcended the bounds which are technically limited to his authority in matters liturgical.

Many years,

Neil

Yes, I agree. But I�m not sure there are enough parishes in the PacNW to really financially justify one eparchy, let alone two.

Sorry. I meant to merge Stamford and Passaic and give New England to Newton (renamed Boston). I will edit my post.

Yes. I understand. Americans of Ukrainian descent are probably not about to cut ties with Ukraine, either. But all this jurisdictional overlapping only succeeds in making the proclamation of the Gospel more difficult.

Thanks for quoting this IrishM. I had forgotten to ask Hritzko: what on the Metropolia's web page do you think need changed.

Incognitus,

You state:

"The Pittsburgh Metropolia does its best to ignore the existence of the Slovak Greek-Catholic Eparchy in Canada."

How so? Bishop John Pazak has attended every Uniontown Pilgrimage since he became bishop, I assume at the invitation of the Metropolitan.

Fr. Deacon Lance

DJS & Neil,

If Patriarch Husar was at the beatification ceremony of bishop Hopko it was because the UGCC was able to produce solid evidence of the fact that bishop considered himself to be both Ruthenian and Ukrainian. I do believe you that you have evidence that he considered himself to be a Rusyn, but clearly the Vatican told you that there was 'other stuff' that pointed to the fact that he was also Ukrainian. This double label would be congruent with many 'Slavs' in interwar Czechoslovakia.

My credibility is not on the line here, the UGCC historical archives is. I would never make such a claim unless it was fully documented and published. Perhaps you are questioning the credibility of the UGCC's archives.

Further, one does not have to live in Ukraine to be considered Ukrainian. You can live in Slovakia, Poland, Canada, or anywhere else in the world so geography does not have to play into his ethnicity. Even the Vatican recognizes this.

If Patriarch Husar was not participating in the ceremonies it's because there was strong objections to his being there by the two groups which did not want to loose their credibility.

Although I do not remember each and every fact concerning WW2, I do have a good knowedge of events - even if they are Ukrainian oriented. I do remember reading in several sources that the Ruthenian-Ukrainian bishops of Mukachevo and Prajshiv (Presov) did in fact support the establishment of President Voloshyn's Carpatho-Ukrainian Republic.

I will be speaking to Monsignor Baran (UGCC, Winnipeg, Manitoba) this evening concerning matters. His father was the secretary to three Czechoslovak Prime Ministers and he himself has earned two doctorates in history from Univesities in Rome. He grew up in a suburb of Uzhorod in interwar Czechoslovakia. If you have any additional questions which need clarification, I would suggest you ask them a.s.a.p. - he is considered by the Vatican as a first class expert on affairs in Subcarpathian-Rus / Carpatho-Ukraine.

Hritzko

The way your worded your original post it appeared that you were suggesting that Bishop Basil�s participation in the 1969 Synod was proof that he was Ukrainian.

All Catholic bishops. Given the state of Ukraine in 1969 under the Soviet Communists I think that everyone should have been included, even if just for a sign of unity. I apologize for not being more specific.

The Synod would be limited to the ethnic Ukrainians and their Greek Catholic Church. Greek Catholics who are part of the Ukrainian suri iuris Church are not part of the hoped for patriarchate and should not participate in their synods, except maybe as observers.

In order to protect ethnic minorities I think that the Ukrainian patriarchate must be for Ukrainian Greek Catholics only. I like your idea of an Episcopal conference. Or are you suggesting the abolishment of the Ruthenian suri iuris Church and the assimilation of it into the Ukrainian suri iuris Church?

That is a good question for Hritzko. Why does he consider the Carpatho-Rusin ethnicity to be illegitimate? But I am still waiting for his report of his phone call to the seminary in Uzhorod.

Group A (the Carpatho-Rusins) definitely sees the name change forced by Group B (the Ukrainians) to be an act of aggression. I think it is much better for Group A to respect Group A enough to let them continue to remain a separate ethnic group rather then to attempt to assimilate them.

It would be much better for the patriarch to simply allow a chapel or parish church to be created that is directly subject to the either Uzhorod or Mukachevo. There is precedent for such an action. This would allow the Carpatho-Rusins great freedom.

As I have stated previously, the priests and seminarians from Uzhorod / Mukachevo who visit our parishes here in the United States all say the same thing. That they are Carpatho-Rusins. That the Ukrainians want to make them into Ukrainians. And that they have no control over the borders They are not all lying.

Father Deacon Lance is quite correct. While Bishop John does not join our bishops when they meet formally in Washington, DC with the USCCB I understand that he often joins their other meetings. Plus, the Slovak Greek Catholic Eparchy in Canada uses the English language liturgical books published by Pittsburgh. There is great cooperation and fellowship.

Cute.

I challenged your credibility on your claim that our inter-war Ruthenian bishops had claimed Ukrainian identity. You later admitted unfamiliarity with many of these bishops.

Not on the by now tiringly familiar carpatho-rusyn = ukrainian identification made in the UGCC article.

An observation that is not the same as claiming the inter-war Bishops declared themselved Ukrainian - anymore than support of the Czecho-Slovakian state represented a claim to be Czech or Slovak.

Tony,

Please again accept my apologies concerning the statement. I made notes regarding the linking of the statements and instead blended them. I'm not smearing you at all, I'm just trying to highlight the fact that there are some many political, economic, cultural, and other factors playing into anything and everything people say that sometimes it's hard to distinguish fact from fiction. I speak to people there several times a week and it takes me days sometimes to truly try to figure out what they really mean.

Again, please do not read my comments as a smear. You seem to be far far far better informed than most people.



(1) Yes Tony, I would agree that not much has changed between 1991 and 1996 except the price of 'Kava' at the supermarket. I meant between 1646 and 1996 (delta = 350 years).

(2) There have been many posts concerning the Hutsuls and other Carpathian 'mountain people' who seem to be 'branded' as both 'Rusyn' and 'Ukrainian', and perhaps many other variants of these two names.

(3) I wrote a reply to DJS above about Monsignor Baran who now resides in Winnipeg, Manitoba. He grew up in a suburb of Uzhorod in interwar Czecholovakia and his father was a well placed government official who has published information which is contradicts what you are saying. I will be speaking to him tonight to clarify matters so that DJS doesn't think I'm blowing hot air.

Again, accept my apologies for any comments which may have offended you.

Hritzko

Hritzko, perhaps you struggle with English, I don't know. If not then there is another problem underlying some of your responses. I hope you read history better than you do others' posts here.

You wrote the document I mention is from 1996. What is this 1649 you are talking about and what happened in 1649 that concerns us here? The Union of Uzhhorod was in 1646. What is 1649 about?

I am merely saying what is reality. If Monsignor Baran contradicts Rome about the structure of the Catholic Church, well, you may chose to believe the good Monsignor but I won't. The reality is that in Hungary and Slovakia and the Czech Republic the churches function sui juris they are not tied to Ukraine as you insist.

Go there (I have been to all those places mentioned above, not just once but over and over) you will not hear Cardinal Husar commemomorated. Perhaps you should send them a memorandum telling them they need to begin.

Admin,

I remain all for the idea we discussed some time back, of two Byzantine Patriarchates in the old country - one in the Slav Tradition (to be fought out between the Ukes and Rusyns), the other in the Greek tradition. Situate, within each, a Metropolitan or a Major Archbishopric (might as well put Rome's invented title to some use) for the US and then, within it, suffragn/dependent eparchies (ethnic, if need be).

Many years,

Neil

Admin,

I suspect that paragraph was intended to read:

The Synod would be limited to the ethnic Ukrainians and their Greek Catholic Church. Greek Catholics who are not part of the Ukrainian suri iuris Church are not part of the hoped for patriarchate and should not participate in their synods, except maybe as observers.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Deacon John,

It seems like almost an 'oxymoron' to have these two states in the same group; Alaska & Hawaii.

Hritzko

You know what Hritzko? I lived in seminary (BC - Ruthenian) with a guy from Uzhhorod for 3 years. He spoke Hungarian at home, Ukrainian for everything official, and who knows what else. His last name was very Ukrainian sounding to my ears. I asked him what his ethnicity was he told me much to my surprise, Slovak. I left it at that. I asked him again to be sure I had understood. The borders shifted more than once in the lifetime of people in his family's recent memory.

Why did I leave it at that? For me it was a matter of courtesy. I have heard people insult others by forcing on them another ethnicity or at times even race (this has happened to me). It is mind bogglingly rude and lacks what our Lord calls us to do in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

The people of this part of the world have been abused by those in power for centuries. They have been vicitims of political machinations of the most nefarious sort. If someone, somewhere wants to think of himself as something I find hard to accept, what harm is it to me?

Again, one could take the basis for your arguments and say that the Ukrainians are simply Russians who aren't smart enough to know it. Isn't that offensive?

Tony