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Hritzko, I said absolutely nothing about not having a good time in Uzhhorod. I suggest you re-read my post(s) and/or visit a medical professional.

Best of luck.

Tony

Dear Administrator,

I'm sorry you feel you need to overcompensate for past errors of your church both here in the United States and in Slovakia.

You have proven to everyone who has read this thread, that you are more than willing lie about events in Ukraine to support your own political agenda. One person's opinon (if they exist or not) at one seminary is not the truth - it's propaganda to suit your own agenda.

You continually repeat the same unsubstantiated comments, and any further discourse with you will not be productive.

Hritzko

Tim,

My understanding from your comments is that you believe that 'Hutsuls' (Carpathian mountain people) have never really used the term 'Rusyn', or if they did then it fell out of favour a the beginning of the 20th century and was replaced with the word 'Ukrainian'.

IMHO, at the turn of the century, all three terms were used to describe these people, but Rusyn was probably not used very much as compared to Hutsul and/or Ukrainian. Today only Hutsul or Ukrainian are used.

The only reason I mentioned it was because of the fact that you use it on your 'WORLD ACADEMY OF RUSYN CULTURE' web site (RUSYN.ORG) under the 'Architecture' section did in fact claim 'Hutsul' culture as 'Rusyn' also. I was trying to please you, even though I did not agree with the material from your web site.

On the main page of the same web site, there are several posted pictures. Here is why I do not believe they are 'Rusyn' (and therefore must question the accuracy of the rest of the contents) ;

(1) The Boiyk Church is very much 'near Galician' in style, but this could be debaded.

(2) The two pictures of the bears (real and statue) represent all of the Carpathians (even those you do not claim as Rusyn - ie: Hutsul)

Hutsul Ukrainian architecture on \'Rusyn web page\' [rusyn.org]

(3) The picture of the mountains could be in the Canadian Alps, Switzerland, etc...

(4) The girl with the candle could have been taken in Chicago, Paris, or Kyiv.

(5) The easter eggs could be Ukrainian (almost any region of the country).

(6) The woman in the ethnic 'Rusyn' costume is in fact wearing a distinctive 'Greater Ukraine' or Eastern Ukrainian Costume. She is in fact my ex-grilfriend probably taken during a dance rehersal in N.J. -

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but again, I think that you should re-evaluate the materials you present as 'Rusyn' and be honest about whether or not they are 'anything / anywhere' or in fact Ukrainian.

Hritzko

Tony,

I have presented facts concerning churches, religion, ethnicity, and history as I know them to be. Nothing was made up by me and can be well documented in good scholarly books.

I'm sorry that my opinions are not congruent with yours. However telling me that I should visit a 'health care professional' because I do not agree with your opinions is a definite sign of lack of maturity.

Since you have nothing new to add and are unable to continue in a productive manner, please consider my discussion with you over the subject matter of this thread closed.

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko,

Thank you for your post.

Have you spoken the people at the Uzhorod Seminary yet? Please answer yes or no.

Do you acknowledge that the people of Transcarpathia have right to determine which ethnic group they belong to? Please answer yes or no.

I would really like to see you answer the questions people have asked of you instead of repeating your mantra �Carpatho-Rusins are really ethnic Ukrainians�.

But maybe your intention is to be obnoxious and to generate ill will towards Ukrainians? If yes, you are greatly succeeding.

Admin

Good heavens, this is getting acrimonius. However:
I was mistaken yesterday about the title of the new Moscow Patriarchate bishop in Transcarpathia - he's Bishop of Khust' and Vynohradiv.
As of late 2003 (when the calendar went to press) Uzhhorod and Mukachevo were still one eparchy.
The Blessed Theodore Romazha seminary has an e-mail address. So does the "Blahovisnyk" of the Eparchy - I think I shall try to subscribe to the Blahovisnyk and see what idiom they are printing in.
Sending e-mail messages in the Cyrillic alphabet is possible but difficult - I don't really know how it's done.

Incognitus

Tim,

We have already discussed the issue of ethnicity in Ukraine at length, and clearly we do not agree. So perhaps we should just agree to dissagree on this issue.

In regards to 'Rusyn' identity you must be honest about it's true existance. For example, I have verified several sites which indicate that the Byzantine Czech exarchate has between 1300 and 2000 'Rusyns'. Further, nobody seriously believes their numbers will grow, but only dwindle VERY RAPIDLY over the next generation. At the same time there are an estimated 140,000 to up to 200,000 new Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Orthodox who are in the same country and can't understand why Rome has not appointed a Ukrainian speaking bishop for this exarchate. You will respond by stating that the bishop was appointed by Presov...... - but at some point you have to be realistic and stop blaming 'THE UKRAINIANS' for your problems.

Hritzko

Hritzko,

Anyone can read my posts. You erroneously attributed to me comments that I did not make earlier, I called you on that and you responded courteously.

Now you are doing it a second time. Anyone can see I did not say anything about not having a good time in Uzhhorod. That shows either very, very sloppy reading, a vision problem or some other health problem or simply malice.

Which one is it?

Tony

I'm not sure if there's a language problem here, but I never blamed any people. The problem is a the government of Ukraine (not ethnic Ukrainians).

Because, as we know, the only issue here is the refusal of the Ukrainian government to acknowledge the Rusyn identity in Ukraine.

You may not be clear on this, but the Ukrainian government is the only one in the region to deny official status to Rusyns. Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Serbia-Macedonia all designate the Rusyns as officially-recognized minorities.

Yours in Eastern Slavic solidarity,

--tim

Given the title of this thread and its subsequenting morphing into a type of Ukrainian Defense Manifesto, one would think the Romanians were luring Ukrainian tourists to visit their temples in hopes of turning the tourists into Romanian Greek Catholics.

All joking aside, there has been a great deal of "ink" over the loss of the Ukrainian/Rusyn/Slav identity within the Metropolia of Pittsburgh. Perhaps living in the Western US, I am insulated from this (from my non-Slavic perspective) consternation about lost ethnicity. I am thankful that I found the Byzantine Catholic expression of faith, which has allowed me to develop an ongoing relationship with Our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. As a result, I discerned a vocation to the diaconate which allows my to serve the Eparchy of Van Nuys. Given some of the postings in this thread by Hritzko, I may not have had the same opportunity in his Church. Interestingly, the faithful of the Metropolia of Pittsburgh that I have encountered never once asked if I was Ukrainian, Rusyn, etc. (given my complexion, perhaps they assume I am "Black Rusyn" ).

I recall on one occasion after a few visits to St Stephen's Pro-Cathedral, an elderly gentleman came up to me, introduced himself, explained that he was Ukrainian, but chose to worship at St Stephens because the parish welcomed everyone. He continued to thank me for coming and explained that the Church is not an ethnic enclave, whose raison d'etre is to keep a particular culture alive. Just last year, I travelled to Uniontown for my first pilgrimage experience. After serving as deacon for Bishop William's closing Divine Liturgy, a number of elderly people men and women, came up to me, asked where I was from, and then one particular woman said, "I'm glad you're in our Church, we need more people like you in our Church." The others nodded in agreement. Asking her what she meant, she replied, "You know, non-Slav Americans." Only later did I find out it was Mila Mina, the iconographer.

I relate these anecdotes to convey that a living Faith in the US will eventually transcend the ethnic culture from which it was formed. As Byzantine Christians, we are called to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world, not preserve an ethnic culture club. I'm not criticizing anyone who wants to preserve their ethnic culture, but that is not the mission of the Church.

Gee, Tony, it was only 24 hours ago that it was said of you that

Tim,

Think you're the only one with whom he still chooses to discourse. You lucky dog, you :rolleyes:

Many years,

Neil

Deacon John,

Well-said.

Many years,

Neil

I don't have a web site.

--tim

Discourse is good. I think he's just about to come over to our side!
--tim

Tim,

Your point is well taken and I have never asked myself for the exact formula they used, but it was given to me a UGCC Archipriest in Montreal - and for a reason.

I have mentioned several times that 1988 was the year the Ukrainians celebrated the Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine-Rus. There are few scholars who don't believe that this single event in 988 on the banks of the Dnipro river in Kyiv (Ukraine) were monumental in terms of shaping Eastern European religion, society, and culture.

By the mid-1980's every Eastern Church understood the importance of the upcoming millennium event. President Mikhail Gorbatchev of the Soviet Union was not an exception. His Perestroijka (restructuring) plan of the Soviet Union needed some international recognition, perhaps most importantly at the global social-religious level. He saw this as a unique opportunity to showcase his 'new re-engineered Soviet Union' and decided to invite the most famous person in the world - the Holy Father John Paul 2.

John Paul 2 was invited by the Soviets to attend what the Soviets called the; 'Millennium of Christianity in Russia' event, which was to be based in Moscow. The Ukrainian Catholic Church at the same time was requesting that the Holy Father visit Ukraine since Kyiv was site of the original historic event and the Greek-Catholic were based there. The Lithuanian Catholics were also insistant that he visit their severely represed church in that Soviet Socialist Republic.

The Soviets would not accept the Holy Father's request for the side trips (Wester Ukraine and Lithuania) because they feared it would "stir-up the masses", but did everything else possible to have him meet the Moscow Patriarch for the Millennium events. The event was to be Mikhail Gorbatchev's 'crowning glory' of his Perestroijka policy. Rumours had already circulated that he had accepted and was looking forward to meeting the Patriarch.

In the end, the Holy Father refused the offer because he could not meet with Lithuanian and Ukrainian Catholics. The Holy Father's official excuse for not attending Moscow's big Millennium bash was: 'since I can't meet with my Ukrainian Greek-Catholics to cellebrate the event (and later with the Lithuanians), I will not be coming at all to the Soviet Union and instead will meet the Ukrainians in Rome.

Our Patriarch and bishops prepared a religious cultural plan for the Rome 'bash' which would be representative of ALL Ukrainian cultural groups but also gave some consideration to things such as group geography, history, and relative numbers, (etc...). They wanted to ensure that each region of Ukraine, the diaspora, and other factors were taken into consideration for the program.

I distincly remember the 30% 'Carpathian (and beyond)' content quota because, in addition to playing some some select songs with my marching band to reflect the region, I (and 3 others) were asked to play Hutsul 'Trembitas' at the event to meet this segment 'quota'. The four of us played the instruments in Vatican Square to 'announce to the 'four corners of the earth (North, East, West, South) '; The New Millennium of our Christian Orthodox Church in Ukraine and all the Rus'. Then the Montreal band and large choir from the United Kingdom started singing with us. The sound of the 'Carpatho-Rus/Ukraine echoed throughout Vatican Square like never before. I thought the whole thing was kind of corny, but it seems the Vatican radio couldn't get enought of it and replayed it on the air every day to start and end their multilingual international broadcasts of the week long festivities.

Although there were many more examples of Carpathian inclusion in the program (in addition to all the other regions) perhaps the most touching of all was the surprise group that everyone had kept secret until the very last moment. During the youth rally attended by some 7,000 people and the Holy Father in front of St-Sophia's Ukrainian Greek Catholic Cathedral in Rome, about 30 teenage girls and boys from Northern Poland suddenly mounted the podium and sang two Lemko religious hymns. Their families had been deported two generations earlier from the Carpathians and they had been among some of the first Lemkos to resurface in the West from Poland (remember were are talking the 80's). The Holy Father insisted that they not leave the stage even when they finished and held their hands for the rest of the program.

So where was I going with all this, oh yeah, the church tries to be as inclusive as possible, and at least in 1988 (actually the year before) had devised an all inclusive plan (including 30% Carpathian & beyond Mountain people) for this unique and historical event which many of my friends still say was the most spiritual time of their lives.

Hritzko