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Dear Incognitus,

I thought this post of yours was very interesting and I hope to have a bit more information soon.

These priests serve liturgy in Church Slavonic but they use Russian (Muscovite) for general communication with the people, including sermons - in spite of the fact that the people are unilingual Ukrainian (Rusyn) speakers. No matter who they put in the position, Russian will be the language de jour because they report directly to the Muscovite's Patriarch.

What I find alarming is that Metropolitan Ahafanhel (Savin) of Odesa of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate was recently interviewed by a leading newspaper and stated that he wants Russian politicians to get involved in Ukrainian Church affairs. What is even more alarming is that he recently stated that "the Russian Orthodox Church and it's inseparable part, Ukrainian Orthodox Church - (Moscow Patriarchate) should remain united".

I hope the events are not related. I suspect they are. The Muscovite's Orthodox Church has never really existed without strong political support.

Hritzko

Dear Deacon John,

Geography plays a big part in terms of the mix our churches. Some parishes are very 'Ukrainian', and others more mixed. Although Diak's (Randy's) parish seem so be fairly Americanized, I myself have never heard the Divine Liturgy in English in any UGCC church anywhere - including Canada, USA, France, England, Germany, Italy, etc...

Those parishes that did become 'ethnic clubs' did not become this way due to chauvenism or racism, but from necessity. The mother country of our church fell into the hands of the Communists who destroyed Christian life and a lot more. Contrary to what impression you seem to have, only the most carring peoples remained in the UGCC.

In Canada where large numbers of Ukrainian emigrated, there were almost immediate defections from the UGCC. For example: the Protestant sects were relatively wealthy and very generous to early immigrants who often joined in large groups with the hope of bettering themselves. The Roman Catholic Churches were always more accessable so some attended them and assimmilated quickly. Large numbers joined the Russian Orthodox Church (now OCA). Communists-Socialist sucked up another 25% of our people.

Those who remained in the UGCC were dedicated to ideals of helping the church and country they left behind in a dire predicament. To do this we had to create a unique way of life which could generate the people, ideas, money, and energy needed to develop the church and culture in the diaspora. We never abandoned our families and UGCC which was left in the hell of communism.

I could give you endless examples of our dedication, but perhaps it would be best if I gave you one which relates to a post I made a little earlier;

In 1987 when Mikhail Gorbatchev of the Soviet Union told the Holy Father there was no point going to Western Ukraine to meet Greek-Catholics because "there were none", it was the diaspora Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church which spoke out in protest for the Ukrainian Church (Mukachevo Eparchy included). When the Holy Father said he would host the UGCC in Rome in 1988 to celebrate the Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine, our diaspora bishops in consultation with our Greek-Catholic episcopate in the Soviet Union planned the events I mentioned a few posts earlier. Without a dedicated well developed global 'ethnic church' in the diaspora, these events would never have happened. Furthermore, the Communists would have succeeded and there would not be a church in Ukraine today.

It should be noted that the UGCC represented the Mukachevo Eparchy of the 'Ruthenian' Greek Catholic church at the request of bishop Margytych who participate in it's synod while in Soviet Ukraine.

Within the year he and several other Greek Catholic bishops travelled to Moscow to demand the legalization of the UGCC in Ukraine.

The Holy Father aknowledged our contribution during his visit to Ukraine in 2001 when he said "the diaspora UGCC spoke for the Church in the Catacombs when it could not" (including the Ruthenian Mukachevo Eparchy'). The Holy Father himself recognized our contribution to the preservation and restoration of Greek-Catholicism in Ukraine (including the Mukachevo Eparchy).

Our church has always been tied to the dire state of our ancestral homeland. Believe me when I tell you it's only the dedicated who have remained. IMHO, it was the Christian thing to do. It would have been much easier to have assimmilated and attended the church 'next door'.

The only reason I'm participating in this forum is because many of us are trying to open our church to more North Americans. The trick is how to do it without loosing our main raison d'etre - helping the old country. I gues our motto should be: 'Ask not what your church can do for you, but what you can do for your church"

Hritzko

Hritzko,

"...our main raison d'etre - helping the old country."

While helping the old country is a noble and laudable goal your main raison d'etre is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with your neighbor. Until Eastern Catholics of all Churches and Traditions respond to this mandate we will contiue to decline.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Ung-Czertezs,

Yes - 'Star Trek' is very popular with youths in Ukraine also. I have seen the show on Ukrainian TV and can attest to the fact that they 'yonggins' love watching Capitain Piquard and his gang.

I would think, hope, and pray that the Mukachevo Eparchy of the Greek Catholic Church would welcome you with open arms.

A word of advice before you go: learn to speak Ukrainian so that you can communicate with the people of your ancestral homeland. You can call it 'Rusyn' or 'Mukachavian' or 'Uzhorodian' if that makes it easier for you to attend the language classes.

Zakarpattia (Beyond-the-Carpathians) Ukraine is yours to discover - visit any time !

Hritzko

Dear DJS,

In the first century St-Andrew the Apostle spread the Gospel of Jesus to the people of Krym (Crimea) in Southern Ukraine and according to history made his way all the way up to Kyiv ( there is debate as to the validity of his being able to have travelled so far North).

In the first century, Pope Klement (Clement) was exhiled to Krym (Crimea) where he spread the Gospel to the Slavs found to the Northern regions.

In the year 863 A.D. - the Church Slavonic Gospel of the Sts-Cyril & Methodius arrived in the Carpathians Mountains from Moravia. It was from this point that the gospel of Jesus Christ was able to spread rapidly among the Carpatho-Rusyn people.

The main 'target' for this new Gospel was none other than Grand Prince Askold of Kyiv-Rus who ruled over the most important Rusyn area at the time. In order to convert him, it was necessary to create a script which would be unique for his people. By 867 he accepted Christianity as his own personal faith and just like in the Carpathian mountains the Byzantine faith was able to spread rapidly among the Rusyns of Kyiv-Rus.

In the United States of America, the Carpatho-Rusyn communittee marks the arrival of these Church Slavonic Gospels to their ancestral land as THE monumental event which defined them as a people. Although I have never seen any literature to confirm this, I'm sure that the USA Carpatho-Rusyn communittee celebrated the 1100 year anniversary of the arrival of the Gospels of Sts-Cyril & Methodius to their ancestral homeland in grand style in 1963.

The Ukrainian Americans celebrated Grand-Prince Askold's personal baptism in Kyiv 867 as a major landmark in their Christian heritage, but did not give it as much importance as the events of 988 (121 years later).

In 988 Grand Prince Volodymyr of Kyiv-Rus baptized his RUSYN NATION and accepted Orthodox Christianity as the official religion of all his people. This monumental achievement assured that all of Eastern Europe would become Christian even though the Islamic states were doing all possible to spread their faith to the East Slavs.

Although the American Carpatho-Rusyns put the events of 867 at the forefront of their identity, and from my perspective seem to discount and perhaps even ignore the other landmark evens because they are considered 'foreign' to the Pittsburg Metropolia.

The non-USA Carpatho-Rusyns of Europe and the ROW (Rest Of the World - ie: Ruthenian Greek-Catholic Exarchate in the Czech Republic) have take a more comprehensive and integral view of their Christian history which gives equal importance to the following: (1) the evangelization of Pope Klement in Southern Ukraine, (2) the arrival of the Church Slavonic Gospel created by the Sts-Cyril & Methodius to the Carpathians and to Kyiv-Rus, and (3) the acceptance of Christianity as the official state religion of the Rusyn people in Kyiv-Rus (now Ukraine) by Grand Prince Volodymyr in 988.

Hritzko

I believe that Bulgarian missionaries were responsible for much of the missionary work amongst the eastern slavs in the ninth century and after the expulsion from Moravia, the the work of the blessed brothers and their fellow workers passed to Bulgaria which at that time was the most significant power that Byzantium was trying to bring into its orbit...

Anton

I bet Grand Prince Volodymyr was plenty tired after that.


Is it just me or do I notice a trend in Hritzko's posts that given the opportunity to somehow tie it in, he makes a point of slamming the Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh?

Dear Anton,

There had been at least two full centuries of (uninterupted) Christian growth in the land of Kyiv-Rus prior to 867, the year Grand Prince Askold accepted the Greek Orthodox faith for himself. His personal conversion was contingent on the Saints to the Slavs (Cyril and Methodius) developing a script which could be used by his Rusyns.

The need was already there because Christians had been evangelizing the lands of Kyiv-Rus for at least a full two hundred years (without interuption) prior to Askolds conversion. In addition to Bulgarians as you correctly state, there were also Rumanians and Greeks who were prominent in evangelical activities. 'Credit' for these early activities has always been noted in Ukrainian history books.

Hritzko

Dear Deacon Lance,

The declining UGCC numbers are of concern to both the USA and Canadian Metropolias. Recent immigration from Ukraine has improved our adherance statistics in the larger and mid-sized cities, but has done little to help the smaller towns.

After discussing the situation with leading members of our community, the general consensus was that our church will expand greatly into the non Ukrainian segment of society. How to do this without compromising the integrity of the ethnic component of the Church is the tricky part.

There are many who believe that if we apply the zeal of our 1988 commemoration activities (Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine) to evangelizing the non-Ukrainian segment of society, we could double our church adherance figures in less than 5 years.

Hritzko

[There are many who believe that if we apply the zeal of our 1988 commemoration activities (Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine) to evangelizing the non-Ukrainian segment of society, we could double our church adherance figures in less than 5 years.]

How? By continuing to offer Ukrainian language Liturgies and politics instead of English & Bible study? Don't hold your breath. Best you listen to what these Carpatho Rusyns are trying to tell you regarding a united Byzantine Catholic Church here in America with your own separate Ukrainian diocese. That is the only way you will survive!

If Ukraine is such a living paradise why do you stay here? Go back to the motherland and rebuild it from there. Neither the U.S. or Canada is about to become NEW UKRAINE.

OrthoMan

Dear Deacon John,

Please let me first state that the USA Byzantine Metropolia has done phenomenal work at developing a non-Slav and non-Arab church in North America. The work of this church is worthy of emulation by many churches, including the UGCC on this continent. Further, if I'm still here, it's because there are clear benefits of working together and I think there is hope.

However, I would ask you to carefully review the posts and then ask yourself a simple question: "Who is slamming whom ?"

Earlier on in this thread "Iconophile" (a USA Byzantine Metropolia member) stated in no uncertain terms that the Pittsburg Metropolia published anti-Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church materials. It has since come to my attention that there has been much more. Who is slamming whom ?

It would appear that no matter what information I provide to this forum, if it does not agree with the administrator's opinion, it is branded as "imperialistic" and "unacceptable". Who is slamming whom ?

I have read much history and have spent my life defending and building both my church and the ancestral homeland of my people. Further, I have particpated in many unique events which have shaped my church and ancestarl homeland and I'm confident that my opinions are factual and beneficial to those who read them.

Althought my spelling needs improving (I have got to stop posting after 11:00 pm) my comments are not without merit and worthy of serious consideration, and not ridicule or antagonism.

What I have come to realize is that there are on this forum many half truths, misconceptions, and plain false statements being made about Ukraine which is home to the largest population of the UGCC (it is impossible to discuss one without the other). I'm not sure if this a historical legacy, or an active program at disinformation.

Also, it would appear that the overall strategy of some forum members is to constantly demonize the UGCC and Ukraine for their own demise, when in fact these two have been the saviours of the Carpatho Ruthenian-Ukrainian people. Anyone who has read this thread would have come to that conclusion by the second or third page.

The USA Byzantine Metropolia is a unique phenomena and not the norm for Carpatho Ruthenian-Ukrainian culture outside of Eastern Europe. Certain forum members must come to terms with this. I have presented historical, cultural, social, and religious perspectives which are aimed at providing the reader with an informed opinion about events. Most of what I present can be verified.

Our goal is not to "slam" the USA Byzantine Metropolia but to enlighten it about certain key aspects about Ukraine, the UGCC, and other issues.

Since this is a Catholic Christian Forum, I expect sincere, verifiable, scholarly, and pertinent information to be posted which can help heal the rift between the two churches. Instead, what the administrator in particular has done is to create false statements which only serve to antagonise and inflame relations which otherwise could be productive and friendly.

The administrator's ongoing antics about mass unrest and discrimination in Ukraine have not been proven in spite of persistant requests to substantiate them. He has since 'watered-down' his comments to state that there are discrimations problems only in the Greek-Catholic seminary at Uzhorod. I frankly doubt it.

I will have prepared a full report by Tuesday afternoon concerning the Theodore Romzha seminary in Uzhorod, Ukraine. Should there be issues of discrimination or mass unrest, I will be the first to contact the UGCC to complain. If however, these claims prove to be false or exagerated beyond any reasonable level, then I think that certain statements will have to be retracted by the administrator and others.

Again, my goals are not to "slam" any group or people, but rather to provide information which can help to eliminate some of the misconceptions about the UGCC and Ukraine so that the churches can grow and not wither.

Hritzko

Dear Orthoman,

Yes I agree, the Moscow Patriarch is very worried.

Hritzko

Dear Incognitus,

My comments were meant to inject a bit of humour into an otherwise 'heavy' (but necessary) thread. At no time did I mean to insult this 'hero' saint to all Catholics and many Orthodox Christians in the Carpathians and beyond. I have read Saint Theordore Romzha's biography on numerous occassions and have nothing but love and respect him. Please accept my sincere apologies if you or anyone else was offended.

Hritzko

PS: If you heard me speak Ukrainian you would have a good laugh. My 'Canadian dialect' of the language has been so 'contaminated' with English that at times I think I'm speaking " Ukrainish" or "Englainian" .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hritzko:

There had been at least two full centuries of (uninterupted) Christian growth in the land of Kyiv-Rus prior to 867, the year Grand Prince Askold accepted the Greek Orthodox faith for himself. His personal conversion was contingent on the Saints to the Slavs (Cyril and Methodius) developing a script which could be used by his Rusyns.

--- Well see...the weird thing is that I was always under the impression that the Glagolithic script was developed for the Moravians and that St Clement and the others were responsible for the creation of the Cyrillic alphabet when they arrived to Bulgaria, on the personal invitation of the Bulgarian Khan who supported the endeavours of the missionaries to create a seperate language for them -- indeed much of Cyrillic was based on the language spoken by the Bulgarians...which is why Old Church Slavonic is sometimes known as Old Bulgarian.


The need was already there because Christians had been evangelizing the lands of Kyiv-Rus for at least a full two hundred years (without interuption) prior to Askolds conversion. In addition to Bulgarians as you correctly state, there were also Rumanians and Greeks who were prominent in evangelical activities. 'Credit' for these early activities has always been noted in Ukrainian history books.

-- Actually, the Romanian Church owns much to Bulgaria for its religious and missionary growth as well as is linguistic growth as well. It was only towards the end of the eighteenth century or so, that there grew a movement which sought to make Romanian more pure, by for example replacing Bulgarian words with Romanian versions (somewhat like the French are doing with Anglo-Saxon words).

From the tone of many of your posts, it would appear that next you would be claiming that Ukrainians discovered fire and that soon, the Ukraine would be claiming imperium over all Slavs....

Anton

P.S. And as far as this thread is concerned, is there not something about:Flogging. Dead. Horses.

Anton,

Pope Klement (Clement) was exiled to Krym (Crimea) and was living there under less than favorable conditions. Did he actually make it to Bulgaria and create a special script ? I don't know (the Lurker would ).

Further, the only thing I know for sure is that 8 centuries later, Grand Prince Askold of Kyiv-Rus was THE most important Rusyn alive and he was waiting for a script which could be used by his Slavic people. In the opinion of his 'advisors' the Greek and Latin alphabets were not adequate for the purpose of teaching the Gospels to his Slavic people.

How the actual final 'Cyrilic Church Slavonic' text was developed is far beyond my comprehension and I do not claim to understand the fine details (and I never have). Your answer is as good as anything I have ever heard before.

Again, I would not dispute this issue with you. I would even guess that the Greek which was used in the day was very different as compared to the modern language. The language of the 'Rusyns' of Kyiv-Rus (and it's surroundings) probably does not sound like today's Ukrainian.

The point I made is that the early missionaries who arrived in Ukraine were largely from the areas which today are Greece, Bulgaria, Rumania. Later on they began arriving from more 'Western' points of origin (ie: Moravia).

The Holy Father stated when he visited Kyiv, Ukraine in 2001 that the city was "the cradle of Slavic Christianity". I'm sure you wish that he had used the words "East Slavic", but he did not. He meant to say "the cradle of what now are at least three of the largest Slavic nations in the world". I think that he is a good authority on global Christianity and I'm sure he did not mean to lessen the historical importance of Bulgaria and other Slavic nations.

It is very easy to misinterpret what people say, and for that reason I leave all of my statements open to debate - but not ridicule or insults.

I have a different opinion on the matter, and that is: 'The truth shall set you free'.

Hritzko