www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Eastern Assumptions Westward ?

Dear Serge,
There was I peacefully reading the thread on Thanksgiving on the Town Hall Forum, wishing no harm to anyone, and wondering when my phone line would vanish into thin air and expire permanently[ it is a radio access one for another 24hours or less as my suppliers went "bust" !] when a sentance jumped off the the page and walloped me.

<<<<<It seems fair to say that, reflecting different emphases perhaps, Christmas is the Latin Church�s, and Protestants�, biggest holy day and Easter the biggest Orthodox/Byzantine one.>>>>>>

Ouch ! What a generalisation. Of course you will understand that I am speaking personally here , though it is a view shared by many Roman/Latin/Western laity and Clerics that I know. Christmas, Christ's Mass, the Nativity is indeed a very great and important Feast and indeed it had to happen in order that God's plan could be completed.

I admit that to me Christmas is a "lesser" Feast , if you would, please excuse the term lesser. After all the Church in the West has not "prescribed" a preparation period for Christmas as it does for Easter with the 40 days of prayer, penance and fasting. Yes, I freely admit that your preparation periods are far more rigorous that mine and I am hoping to learn more about them from you all. Here is a good example, to my mind, of how the West can and should learn from the East

However in many eyes Easter is the Greatest Feast that ever was - by His Passion, Ignominious Death and Glorious, Triumphant Resurrection , we were Redeemed. That has to be the greatest possible Happening.
However the Resurrection when Christ overcame human death was not the end of it, and many of us regard the time from then to Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given to us, as a continuation of Easter - after all that is when the Easter Season ends. At the same time I will freely admit that not all share this view - to them Easter ends at sunset on Easter day [ or when the childrens easter eggs finally are eaten or melt into a sticky mess ] .

I suspect that my version of your sentance would have been :-

<It seems fair to say that, reflecting different emphases perhaps, Christmas is the nominal churchgoers biggest holiday and Easter the biggest Orthodox / Catholic one .>

I hope we can agree about this .

May Our Blessed Lady , Mother of us all, my Mistress keep us all safe in her tender care,

Angela

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Dear Angela,

Although your post is addressed to our brother, Serge, for my part, I wanted to compliment you on the sensitive manner in which you presented your case.

I have been guilty of overgeneralizing about our Western brothers and sisters. I am also guilty of looking for justification for so doing.

I agree with your statement about nominal church-goers.

You certainly aren't one!

You are also a Western Catholic from whom I have myself learned a great deal about Marian spirituality.

Sometimes I don't know who the Eastern Christian is here, you or I.

I hope to learn more from you and I thank you for accepting my request to be my mentor in this important area of spirituality.

I am,

still enslaved by you,

Alex

Dear Angela in Glasgow,

Welcome back!

I think this may be a difference between theology and culture. Perhaps theologically western Catholicism agrees with Orthodoxy that Easter is more important but culturally my observation over the years is what I wrote. Your addition of "nominal' is also completely true. Easter means little to a secular person but Christmas still exerts a big cultural pull.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Angela,

There . . .

Do you see now really nice Serge is?

A great weekend to one and all!

Alex

Dear Serge,
Thank you for your kindness, - I had just finished typing my response and the wretched machine crashed !!

Yes you are correct about the cultural aspects - but 'times they are a changing'. I well remember just after we had moved to Scotland and I was an Industrial Nurse working in a factory, and I found that we were working normal shifts on Christmas Day. I complained loud and long and often and was told that it was a day like any other - and this in a Christian country !

Since what remains of my phone line is obviously twitchy I will have to make this very brief. I would very much like to hear of the differences in our 'Preparation' practices for the Great feasts of the Church - I suspect that there are some which I would like to adopt and would be very very good for me.

Once I have that necessary phone line I will get back and explain about my Spiritual Journey.Till then

May Our Blessed Lady , Mother of us all and my Beloved Mistress keep you in Her tender care.

Angela

Alex,

Believe it or not I am blushing !! Where is the smiley for that ?

You are too kind.

And yes you were right - after all you usually are

We don't want to lose our chains

May Our Beloved Mistress keep you in Her tender care and help you prepare that place for Her Wonderful Son

Angela

This is true! I am sure that for many Catholics they see Christmas as the Big Feast Day.
But in the understanding of the Western Church I is most certainly the Paschal Mystery of the Triduum. Our Savior has conquered death by death and on those in the grave he has bestowed life.

Bessings,
Stephanos
Unworthy Monk and Archsinner.

Dear Fr Stephanos,

You're right that officially in the Roman Rite Easter is the most important holy day. Thanks for reminding me that the Triduum makes that clear. I like the Triduum a lot &#8212; including in the Novus Ordo, because churches tend not to innovate and instead follow the actual texts and practices of your rite. But as forum member Brendan puts it, there is a difference between official Catholicspeak and rank-and-file Catholicspeak. Sometimes the difference is benign, sometimes the latter veer into error. When I first observed that, among the rank and file in the pews and the semi-churched among western Catholics, Christmas is definitely el primero culturally, I was making no value judgement or accusation of heresy! Midnight Mass Christmas Eve is a big cultural happening (it's when I visit a nearby Tridentine Mass, which is packed*); the Triduum and Easter Vigil, for all their theological importance, aren't &#8212; the already churched go, but not the semi-churched or lapsed. (Like Dr John said about Thanksgiving, Christmas is a big homecoming holiday and part of that for many people is popping into church.) Any ideas why this is?

*This is at a Society of St Pius X or "Lefebvre' church. Its Christmas Mass draws all kinds, from the mantilla'd Italian grandmas to blacks and Asians to biker chicks and their little ones.

http://oldworldrus.com

Midnight Mass Christmas Eve is a big cultural happening (it's when I visit a nearby Tridentine Mass, which is packed*); the Triduum and Easter Vigil, for all their theological importance, aren't &#8212; the already churched go, but not the semi-churched or lapsed. (Like Dr John said about Thanksgiving, Christmas is a big homecoming holiday and part of that for many people is popping into church.) Any ideas why this is?

Serge,

A thought or two about the above. This however may be a Scottish 'thing' I don't know. We are astonished each year at the numbers - standing room only - and this despite our introduction last year of an extremely well attended Vigil Mass as mentioned above [ we estimated 600 + took part]. Our Church holds almost 2000 so when we get to standing room there are a lot of folk there. It seems to be a tradition here that even non churched will attend Midnight Mass[ as you say it is a cultural 'thing'] but we also see a goodly number that we recognise as belonging to our neighbouring Church of Scotland Parishes. They do not have a Midnight Service but they say that this is something they would not miss.Tradition has it that Our Lord was born at Midnight [ reputedly the animals kneel then] so many very deeply committed CofS folk wish to worship at that time and we are there, so they come. They are warmly welcomed of course and afterwards join us for a cup of tea/coffee etc before we all vanish for what is left of the night. Oh by the way this is not a Tridentine Mass [ me, I'm Post Vat II and Tridentine Masses in Glasgow are not advertised so I have not had the opportunity of attending one ] Vestments -[ fiddle back ???] beautiful flowing Gothic in gold for the Principal Celebrant and white for our Concelebrants. Oh it's a wonderful Mass and full of meaning, love and Joy.

Holy Week and the Triduum - that's different - perhaps another time we might discuss it ?

May Our Blessed Lady, Mother of us all, my Mistress keep us all in Her tender care.

Angela

Dear Friends,

Christmas has had a longer cultural existence than its Christian liturgical message as the beginning of the new year (now celebrated on its Octave, Jan. 1).

Christmas was really a Christianized pagan feast, since the Nativity was first celebrated on Jan. 6 with the Theophany heading the list of feasts for that day.

This is perhaps why people of other faiths do get together as families at this time of the year and reflect and celebrate.

Alex

I think that our own personal geography has something to do with this.

In Europe, it is more balanced. Both Christmas and Easter are major holidays lasting for more than one day in almost every European country. Christmas has more hoopla due to the commercialization of it, but Easter is a four-day family weekend throughout most of Europe as well.

Here in the USA, there are no public holidays at all associated with Easter. It is a Sunday event, and most everyone is back to work on Easter Monday (and most Christians also work on Good Friday here -- only the most devout will take a half-day, or a full-day, off on Good Friday). Easter is, therefore, right off the bat a more "religious" and "private" holiday in the USA than Christmas is. Everyone, regardless of religion, has the day off on Christmas, and virtually everyone leaves work early on Christmas Eve. Christmas is a major *national* holiday, regardless of its religious significance. In Europe, Easter is also a major *national* holiday -- but that's not the case in the USA. Therefore it's natural for Americans, even Christian Americans, to tend to see Christmas as a more major holiday (even while they may give a theological nod to the overarching importance of Easter).

Christmas is just a bigger holiday, in cultural terms, than Easter is in the West -- and moreso in the USA than in Europe. Christmas has all of these wonderful traditions associated with it in the West (some of which have been unfortunately commericalized), but Easter has fewer of these. In the East, more of the traditions surround Easter, making it more central -- in cultural terms.

Brendan

Serge
You asked, "Any idea why this is true?"
I think it is becasue of what the feast is all about.
The good news of that day. That is "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." I think it is a desire of all people of good will that there is an inate acknowledging or desire that this is true.

Oh the less noble side, one could speculate that adults feel comfortable with a baby who posses no threat to them and their way of life as opposed to an adult risen lord and savior, judge of the world. To Him they would have to give an account.

Just speculation, for what it is worth

Fr Stephanos
Unworthy Monk and Archsinner

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

Bless, Father Stephanos!

Yes, what you said is what my catechist said many years ago and I believe it is still true!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore
your blessing,

Alex

<<Dear Friends,
Christmas has had a longer cultural existence than its Christian liturgical message as the beginning of the new year (now celebrated on its Octave, Jan. 1).

Christmas was really a Christianized pagan feast>>

As a former Pagan, I would like to add my own two cents to this. I do not feel that Christmas is a Christianized Pagan feast, I think that it is a Christian feast placed around the same TIME as a Pagan feast to show that Jesus Christ defeated the pagan gods. The Pagan holiday is Yule. It is the celebration of the birth of the Sun god. December 25 as the date for the Feast of the Nativity shows that the "sun god" was crushed by the Son OF God. Yule still exists, and it does not fall on December 25. It falls on the Winter Solstice, the "shortest" day of the year is the Pagan feast of Yule. Many anti-Catholic Protestants will speak out against Easter, and that is because they believe Easter is the Christianization of the Pagan holiday of the goddess Ostara, which is the Spring Equinox. Of course we know that this is not the case, but it IS celebrated near the same time. Just as Halloween is celebrated near the same time as the pagan Holiday of the Dead, Samhain, the Fall Equinox. Anyway, God bless!

Your brother in Christ,
Rick Okarski, Jr.

Dear Rick,

If you are a pagan, where do I sign up?

You are right, of course.

Our holidays closely approximated the pre-Christian holidays of the villages, from whence the Latin name "Pagan" is derived.

They defeated the pagan holidays, as you say.

"Yule," Samhain, Beltaine, Imbolc and Lugnasadh continued to be celebrated by Celtic Christianity as the Celtic saints simply "sained" or blessed them for Christian use.

There still are a number of parishes in Scotland who celebrate Christmas on the 25th, but then celebrate "Yule" on January 6th. A number of Welsh parishes also do this and the Glastonbury thorn, given to the Queen each year, continues to flower on January 6-7 to this day.

St Ninian of Galloway even continued to worship within the Celtic stone circles, the Celtic Mass had a circular altar which the Priests would encircle and the organization of the Bread for Consecration followed similar pattern - one reason why the incoming Roman Christians thought this Rite too pagan.

The mistletoe was the Druids' holy flower and they wore special liturgical gloves to remove it from the top of the sacred oak tree.

It was considered so holy that one could not be near it without being in the state of total love with everyone which is why, to this day, we hug and kiss those we find under it at Christmas-time.

But it was banned from Churches because of its overt pagan connection, except at Yorkminster in England where the Canon dons liturgical gloves, like the ones the druids had, and brings a whole bunch of mistletoe into the Cathedral and places it on an altar before Christmas.

At Chartres, Christian missionaries found a wooden statue of a child sitting on the lap of a woman on top of a Druid altar.

They interpreted this to mean a veneration for the "Mother of Christ to come."

To this day at Chartres, on July 13th, there is celebrated the Feast of the image of the Mother of God of Chartres "100 B.C."

The image of Our Lady Undercroft at Chartres is also an exact replica of this earlier statue.

Believe it or not . . .

Alex