www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Theotokos: ever virgin and miraculous childbirth

Be aware of antidicomarianites! They still lurk around in the Church of the Living God.
Stephanos I

I don't know of any specific eastern teachings on whether or not Mary felt pain during child birth or whether or not her hymen remained intact, but that is not to say they don't exist. However, it seems to me that such things are trivial over analyzation of a mystery. The eastern church definitely affirms that she was "ever-virgin", as we use that phrase numerous times.

One place where they eastern church certainly disagrees with the western is with the Immaculate Conception and issue of Original Sin. To the eastern church, the Immaculate Conception is a solution to a problem that simply doesn't exist. We do not believe in "Original Guilt", that we are all guilty of Original Sin, but that we all feel the affects of it.


Now despite what I said above I'll throw my attempt at logic in the mix. As far as I know, the eastern church teaches that Mary was subjected to the affects of Original Sin like the rest of us, since she teaches that there was no need for an "immaculate conception". If the pangs of child birth are a result of that, then I guess she was subjected to those too? I really don't know and am probably wrong.

What is important though, is that she did in fact bear the Word Made Flesh, who is both fully man and fully God, that she was forever a virgin, and that she is the perfect example of obedience to God.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with forming opinions on the matter and trying to reason answers. The problem only comes when such opinions and theories become dogma on specifics of mysteries where the specifics were not taught by the Apostles.. *cough*transubstantiation*cough* ;-)

NF

Take a look at the booklet and references therein that I linked to above.


NF, this point is made so often that it is a real cliche. You need a refresher on the Catholic understanding of Original Sin. A good starting point is to look at the CCC, or search the topic on this forum.

There is also a new Roman "Catholic" movement out there dedicated to promoting Mary as God. It's made a headline or two recently. I know they have a website.

Logos Teen

Garrett- can you provide a link?
-Daniel, always curious about religious weirdness

Daniel,

I just Googled it; the group calls itself the "Mary-is-God Catholic Movement" (MIGCM) and seems to be based out of the Philippines. It says that the group actually does not have an official site yet, but is working on one. Google it yourself and be weirded out!

Logos Teen

Good grief! :rolleyes:

Dear Nicholas F,

In fact, the Orthodox Church, her Fathers and her worship show that the Most Holy Theotokos felt NO pain in giving birth to Christ.

Although rejecting the specific theology of the Western Immaculate Conception, Orthodoxy affirms that the Mother of God was conceived in holiness (as was John the Baptist, whose conception we also celebrate on the calendar - only the feast of an event involving someone already sanctified can be celebrated). More to this, even the Nativity of St Nicholas the Wonderworker is celebrated by the East on August 11 - without dogmatising about it. In addition, St John the Theologian is also celebrated as having been taken to heaven body and soul . . .

The Mother of God felt no pain at giving birth to Christ (Orthodox hymnography movingly compares this with the pain she felt under the Cross of her Son). She also died, but her repose was so light, so sweet that the Orthodox Catholic East calls it a "Dormition" or "Falling asleep" as you know.

But both East and West agree that at NO time did the Theotokos ever have the stain of an actual sin on her soul.

That would be simply outrageous and unthinkable, in view of her role as Mother of God the Word Incarnate.

Alex

Yes, Teen and Daniel, some Filipinos are really "wierdos!"

From the Center:

During our revolution against Spain, culminating in our "independence" on June 12, 1898, the Spanish "Guardia Civil" executed 3 native Filipino Catholic priests: Fr. Gomez, Fr. Burgos, and Fr. Zamora for their alleged complicity in the revolution.

After the U.S. defeated Spain during their own war (in the Philippines), the U.S. "purchased" the Philippines (and her people) from Spain for US$20 million by virtue of the Treaty of Paris (1898). Perhaps this "freedom" from Spanish colonialism and "freedom" under "U.S. imperialism" encouraged Fr. Gregorio Aglipay, a Catholic priest, to form and organize the local Church into a separate and independent Catholic Church at the turn of the century.

The Catholic Church did not bite the bait but by the 1900s, Fr. Aglipay had his "La Iglesia Filipina Catolica Independiente," his initial followers known as the "Aglipayans' but, later, just "Independientes!" It used to attract the "nationalists" and/or "intelligentsia!"

I don't know how many "Independientes" there are currently but they are affiliated with the numerous vagante Churches today. It has married clergy.

To the Left:

At about the same period, a Catholic layman had a sudden "private revelation" directing him to establish the real and true Church of Christ, noting that the Catholic Church was false and corrupt as the bible does not say the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church. He translated the bible into Pilipino and excised those which do not affirm his "revelation." Thus, translated into Pilipino, and in 1914 the Church of Christ is and should be named "Iglesia Ni Cristo!"

The INC claims membership worldwide (mostly Filipinos) of between 1 and 3 million. It has "bishops" but with non-ordained "clergy" or "preachers."

And, now, to the Right and Over the Edge:

Mactan Island, adjacent to the Province of Cebu and to Cebu City, was where Magellan met his untimely death in 1521 or thereabouts at the hands of the local chieftain, Lapu Lapu, presumably a Muslim Datu. But it was also where Christianity (Catholicism) was born for after the battle between the locals and the invading Spaniards, the chieftain and his household were eventually converted and baptized. And his realm followed suit.

This is the first time I hear about the MIGCM, coming out of Cebu City (the second largest in the Philippines) which is apparently an offshoot of the Fatima movement. But, with the proliferation of "movements" in the Philippines, Catholic or otherwise, I am not surprised at all. It seems everybody is eyeing for the "big" bucks these days.

Amado

BTW, the 5 or so Orthodox Church (EP) parishes were started I think by a Filipino ex-Roman Catholic priest, now married.

Wow, sort of like Fatima on acid..
-D

Even as a doctor I'm uncomfortable with talking about you know who's you know what and

Orthodox Catholic wrote:

"Although rejecting the specific theology of the Western Immaculate Conception.....In addition, St John the Theologian is also celebrated as having been taken to heaven body and soul . . ."

How can you reject the Immaculate Conception doctrine if it has been defined? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to try and reconcile the two rather than just to reject the Western doctrine outright?

I have not heard of this tradition about St. John the Evangelist. Can you please elaborate?

Dear Adversus,

The Orthodox East rejects the Immaculate Conception since it has never accepted what it sees as a specific Augustinian understanding of the "stain of Original Sin."

To the Orthodox East, this suggests that the West sees Original Sin as a "stain" on the soul i.e. "the inherited actual sin of Adam."

The East has NEVER accepted anything of the sort - and I'll leave it to RC's to explain what exactly their Church means in its IC definition.

The Western doctrine CAN be rejected by Eastern Orthodox AND Eastern Catholics IF the "pith and substance" of it is (and it is) already accepted by them.

That being that the Mother of God was sanctified as the Most Holy Temple of the Holy Trinity at her Conception. The idea of the Grace of Christ preventing her from contracting the "stain of Original Sin" - that's just foreign theology to the East.

Both sides believe that she was never under the shadow of any kind of actual sin.

And her sanctification at her Conception mitigated the effects of Original Sin throughout her life i.e. she felt no pain at giving birth to Christ, she was not subject to the same concupiscence as we are and her death was a sweet falling asleep and her Son came to claim her body and soul to crown her as Queen of His Heavenly Kingdom (Psalm 44).

The East has a great devotion to St John the Theologian whom it highly honours as a Holy Virgin, Theologian etc. He is also called "Son of Mary" since our Lord entrusted His Mother to him at the foot of the Cross.

The feast day prayers in his honour are based on a deuterocanonical book that relates how John's disciples at Ephesus took the old Apostle to his grave, at his request, and covered him over with a stone.

The next day they came back, rolled away the stone and he wasn't there. Our Church honours his translation to heaven, body and soul, liturgically (without dogmatising about it).

During liturgical celebrations at St John's tomb at Ephesus, worshippers often note how a gentle breeze envelopes them, picking up sparkling specks of dust in a soft wind.

To me, such a high honour to one so holy also suggests that St John was probably conceived in holiness. The same is true of St Nicholas whose Nativity is celebrated - and that could only obtain liturgically if he was sanctified from the womb of his mother too.

Alex

Orthodox Catholic wrote:

"The Western doctrine CAN be rejected by Eastern Orthodox AND Eastern Catholics IF the 'pith and substance' of it is (and it is) already accepted by them."

So people can share communion (the Eastern and Wsestern Catholics) and not share the same faith? Can you cite a Father of the Church on this?

I believe Alex is suggesting no such thing, only making a distinction between the dogma itself and the theological constructs that express the dogma.
As he said, both traditions agree with the core of what is professed. Neither can impose its way of expressing it.
-Daniel, hoping you are not here to sniff out heresy, as your name may indicate, especially as your profile describes you as an "integrist agitator" :rolleyes: .