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Catholic Gyoza
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Another reason, so I am told, is that due to the science of his day St. Thomas believed that the soul didn't enter the body until the 40th day for males and the 80th day for females. The reason is that the sex cannot be differentiated until those aforementioned days when the genitals form. Therefore the belief was (and still is) that God didn't put a soul into a person until his/her sex could be differentiated. We know today that from the exact instant of conception that the sex can be determined by the XX or XY chromosomes in the nucleus of the new baby. This is also why St. Thomas didn't call contraception murder because he believed that the soul wasn't formed yet. But he said that it was worse, as did many other Holy Fathers, in that it prevented a soul from forming unnaturally. Many now feel that if he would have had our modern technology he would fully believe that the Holy Ever Virgin Mary was conceived with out sin. (Or was All Holy from her conception in the womb of St. Ann biggrin )

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Catholic Gyoza
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No one ever answered my question about Moses frown
Have I been blackballed? wink

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Dear Dr Eric,

Your question on whether it is believed Moses was taken bodily to Heaven?

Yes, that is the tradition in the East, both Moses and Elias.

Alex

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See, I need to change rites. wink
That's my belief based on that he was at the Transfiguration w/ Elias (patron of automoblies biggrin ) and the little snippet in the book of St. Jude about St. Michael disputing over the body of Moses w/ Satan.
Bishop Fulton Sheen said that Moses never got to the Holy Land, but at the Transfiguration he finally made it.

My patient, Fr. Bob (anonymous since I didn't tell his last name) says that the mystery is that (he's a Roman Catholic) Heaven was closed until the Resurrection so how could these holy Saints be "assumed" into Heaven. So the mystery is where did they go? What does the East say?

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Alex: I had no doubt that you knew of Aquinas' work and arguments, I just wanted to clarify for those who may not be so familiar with the details, so they didn't run off thinking that he had some total commitment against the idea of the IC (as I've seen some folks try to argue, poorly). smile

Even as a person of Eastern background, I tend to like the Thomist approach. I think it has more to do with my love and study of Orthodox Judaism and the Rabbinical style, however, than any preference of "West over East".
wink

There's something about arguing with yourself about God until you're blue in the face, and then praying in front of the Eucharist for an couple hours that stirs something deep within me. :p

Peace and God bless!

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Dear Dr Eric,

Moses and Elias would have been taken bodily to the "forecourt" of Heaven in anticipation of Christ's Resurrection.

The Christian East believes that the souls of the righteous await the Second Coming of Christ in the same forecourt before being reunited with their bodies to enter Heaven "proper."

Alex

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Dear Ghosty,

And certainly there is a strong tradition of using and honouring St Thomas Aquinas in the Orthodox Church as well.

Fr. John Meyendorff (+memory eternal!) made mention of Orthodox theologians' private invocations to "Blessed Thomas" ("had you been born in the East you would not have defended the Filioque!"). Aquinas' moral philosophy was especially popular.

I am still confused over what the Catholic West today means when it states in its IC dogma that Our Lady was preserved from the stain of Original Sin.

If this does not mean the inherited actual sin of Adam (and with this the Christian East totally disagres), what is it?

And if there is agreement with the Christian East on this, why does one need the dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

Alex

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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[. . .]

The fact is that her sanctification by the Holy Spirit is seen as dynamic in the Eastern Church with her Holy Conception as only the first event - others include the Annunciation, Pentecost, Dormition etc.

[. . .]

All-Holy Theotokos, save us!

Alex
This is one of the key soteriological differences between East and West, because for the East the process of theosis involves an eternal progression into God, what St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Maximos called epektasis. Now, this process of eternal stretching (epekstasis) does not involve an essential change in man's nature, because participation in the divine essence is impossible; rather, it brings about an existential change in man's being as he participates in the uncreated divine energies. With that in mind it is possible to say that Mary is sanctified in the womb of St. Anne, but also that she is sanctified at the Annunciation, the Dormition, and is even being sanctified throughout eternity, because Mary, like all the redeemed, is moving into God through a participation in His uncreated energies and will do so forever. In other words, the Holy Theotokos has become finitely infinite in the divine energy, and so, from everlasting to everlasting, she will be more and more divinized, because, like all the redeemed, she will never cease from her movement (epektasis) into God.

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If this does not mean the inherited actual sin of Adam (and with this the Christian East totally disagres), what is it?
You like the easy questions with nice, short answers, eh? wink

The short answer is that it means that the guilt of Original Sin is manifested by a lack of Original Justice (Grace), as Adam's guilt meant he lost Grace, and we've inherited that same privation even without being personally responsible for it. If you want a more detailed explaination, brave the flood below, which even I admit is simply too long. As the saying goes, sorry for the long letter; if I'd had the time I'd have written a shorter one. :p

Confusion comes, I think, from the unfortunate use of the term "guilt of Original Sin". While the use of the term "stain" is present in both East and West, the use of the term "guilt" to describe Original Sin is not, and it doesn't always call up the image of what's actually being described.

In Western usage, the "guilt of Original Sin" as manifested in Adam and Eve was a privation, or seperation, from the Grace of God, and the resulting disorder in him due to this. Sin is not "something", it's has no form of its own; rather it represents a stepping away from God. In being personally guilty of sin, Adam deprived himself of God's Grace that was in him by original design (called by St. Thomas Aquinas "Original Justice").

Therefore the "observable" manifestation of his sin is the absence of Grace, and the resulting disorder; even though it's not a thing, it can be recognized, just like the void of space is recognizable even though it's not really "there" by its very definition. It's really at its heart an apophatic recognition in the most extreme sense. To put it another way, how can we tell that Adam had sinned? He lost his Grace. So we say that his guilt, the "stain of his sin", is the privation of Grace.

Now we can't help but notice that his descendants inherited this same privation, even through no fault of their own. We say they "inherited his guilt" not because we somehow have to make recompense for something "we" did (although one can use such collective terminology to describe things), but because the manifestation of Adam's guilt is present in us as well by virtue of our descent from him.

Of course there have been various Latin theologians who have tried to tackle the question of "why" and "how" this privation would be passed on, and some took some rather odd and questionable stances, but the fact remains that it's a privation in their view. There's also the fact that Latins due often speak of atonement through Sacrifice, but I think that is easily explained in the Scriptures themselves, and the image of Jesus as the Lamb. Most confusing is the fact that Latin theologians would juggle the apophatic description of Original Sin at the very same time as speaking of it as if it were a "something". This is especially visable with St. Thomas Aquinas, which I'll show in a moment.

All of that is saying that Original Sin is spoken of, and understood, in much of Latin thought as simultaneously being "something" materially speaking, as we can see the results of it, and indeed it does have a material shape in the case of physical death for example, while at the same time it is ultimately nothing but the lack of God's Grace. This is why St. Thomas Aquinas could say with a straight face, "Original Sin is concupiscence, materially, but privation of Original Justice, formally."

Unfortunately, the term "guilt" tends to give the impression of something tangible, when it's actually a lot more complicated than that. Even worse, it gives the image of personal responsibility.

As for why such a statement was deemed necessary, I think it has a heck of a lot more to do with the Protestant West than the orthodox (including Orthodox) East, but this post is long enough already :p

Peace and God bless!

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I knew I was forgetting something: a link to the St. Thomas Aquinas articles from the Summa! It discusses the aspects of Original Sin from the perspective of privation of Grace and manifested indicators and disorders. If you read the articles, I think you'll begin to understand how it's refered to in both manners.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/208200.htm

Peace and God bless!

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