www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are Eastern Catholics truly gaining ground?

Dear Friends,

Many topics here are dedicated to the issues surrounding maintaining our ecclesial traditions and self-government, as well as our spiritual traditions.

In many cases, it is a matter of discussing how this or that tradition has become Latinized - and under what circumstances.

A gnawing question I have is - are we making real progress in any of this?

Are we less "Latinized" than we were thirty or more years ago?

Are we headed toward a better future?

Or are we just spinning our wheels with some vocal "pro-Oriente" individuals in our Churches that are dominated by "Latin-minded" hierarchs and clerics (for the most part) who are only too willing to promote a "pro-Latin" agenda and who are "more papal than the Pope himself?"

Your thoughts?

Alex

Dear Alex, My thoughts are that the question is too complicated to be seen in terms of either - or. There are certainly areas in which there is real progress. There are equally certainly areas in which things have in fact become worse (a phenomenon which might be termed neo-Latinization). It would be a long discussion, but could nevertheless be of considerable interest.
Incognitus

Dear Alex,

Several years ago when Mike and I were in our "Morthodox" stage, I worked with a Greek Orthodox man. I was telling him that we had been told to "return to our traditions" by the Pope. He was not impressed. He said something to the effect of, "Yeah, they're always doing that. They tell the Byzantine Catholics to go back to their traditions, then next thing you know they're all Latinized again. It won't stick."

I know that at the Ruthenian parish we used to attend, there were 5 Byzantine families. The rest were Latin Rite traditionalists who were taking refuge in the Byzantine parish from the horrors of the Novus Ordo :rolleyes: . The priest told Mike and me that if they started a Tridentine parish in the area, at least half his parishioners would be gone. These people wanted to put up Stations of the Cross in the parish. They were terribly excited when the Bishop mandated all parishes to put up an iconostasis and if possible, a dome - because now they were going to be a 'real' Byzantine parish :rolleyes: (Maybe it should be the Church of St. Pinocchio?). They threw a fit when Mike suggested 'replacing' the Rosary before services with Matins or Orthros or whatever you call it. They were horrified at the idea of praying the Chotki because "it doesn't have indulgences attached to it like the Rosary."

As long as we have people like that influencing our parishes, I don't know that we will ever make headway. I don't know what it's like in other Churches sui juris or even other geographical areas, but that's the situation in the Ruthenian Rite in sunny California, where most Byzantine parishioners are either converts or Latin Rite people, and don't know what the true traditions are.

Tammy

Velmyshanovnyj pane Doktor:

Depends upon who you mean as "we." If you look at North America, I would say probably yes, albeit marginally. Parishes such as yours and mine have flourished in the past thirty years while our more Western-leaning parishes are, at least, showing signs of reverting to Eastern terminology ("Liturgy" instead of "Mass" etc.)

If you mean our Church as a whole, you know as well as I do that, if you add Western Ukraine to the mix, "we" are definately MORE Latinized based upon the re-addition of parishes in Western Ukraine. Take a ride around the villages in Halychyna and one routinely sees statues, Latin Religious Art, Stations of the Cross and Rosaries in Church.

There are even pro-Oriente individuals that would never DREAM of leaving communion with the Pope. The fact that our hierarchy won't stand up and tell Rome to shove it when Rome over-steps its boundaries speaks volumes as well, IMHO.

Yours,

hal

Are Eastern Catholics truly gaining ground?

I cannot tell for sure, I am a newbie myself!

But I can say that around Chicago the results are spotty. When I visited the Maronites they had (what appeared to me) a "split" congregation. All of the people in the back seemed to be recreating some liturgy of their own back there! So what Tammy had said rang a bell with me, if a congregation needs those people to pay the bills it's already in big trouble.

But the Byzantine congregation I now belong to is like a slice of heaven. The liturgy is very fine and compares more than favorably to the OCA parishes I am familiar with. The newcomers as a general rule seem interested in integrating themselves into the spiritual life of the church and adapting themselves in every way.

We get new visitors every Sunday and a good number of repeat visitors, so the prospects are good.

I am very grateful to be there, if there are more parishes like mine there is great hope for the church!

In Christ,
Michael

Dear Friends,

Keep those posts and letters coming!

Alex

If you mean our Church as a whole, you know as well as I do that, if you add Western Ukraine to the mix, "we" are definately MORE Latinized based upon the re-addition of parishes in Western Ukraine. Take a ride around the villages in Halychyna and one routinely sees statues, Latin Religious Art, Stations of the Cross and Rosaries in Church.

I wonder how much of this has to do with Latinizations from a spiriutal or even political perspective vs practicality.

In the immediate post world war 2 caos where the Soviet Ukrainian boarder moved westward into what was interwar Poland and Slovakia, there was an displacement (resetlement) of Roman Catholics in the same direction. Ethnic Polish and Slovak Roman Catholics were forecefully resettled westward into their new post world war two countries. When they left they were not able to take many of their Latin rite religious objects with them (ie: statues). Also at least some of their churches became Russian Orthodox (Ukrainian Catholic was outlawed). This would certainly be the case in Lviv. Perhaps the people just made do with the religious objects they had.

Many of the Greek Catholic Churches were plundered by the communists or other local thieves. Go visit an antique shop anywhere in Europe and I guarantee you that you will find Ukrainian byzantine Icons for sale. Unfortunately they sell well. With no other options before them, the people may have used what was available - Roman Catholic Latin Rite surplus. These objects are difficult to steal, export, and fetch little compared to icons.

NOTE: MY STATEMENTS REGARDING COMPARATIVE VALUES OF THE LATIN VS BYZANTINE ARTIFACTS ARE BY NO MEANS A SLANT ON THE THE LATIN RITE CHURCH.

In regards to standing up to Rome, I think that recognition of the Patriarchate has now become the litmus test on church solidarity in regards to our rights as a particular church. Married Eastern rite clergy within the traditional Latin rite territories (ie: Western Europe) will be a close second.

Hi.

Maybe one thing in which Eastern Catholics Churches need to improve and restore the tradition, is their status regarding the Vatican and Rome.

Although they're suposed to be "autonomous", the Orthodox Exarchates under Moscow in Ukraine and Belarus seem more autonomous than their counterparts in many senses.

They just have autonomy in their small patriarchat territories, all their bishops must be approved by the Vatican.

They're in obvious disadvantages in relation to the Latin Church since Eastern Rite Churches do not have any jurisdiction in the diaspora and must ask Rome to send a Bishop and elect an Eparchy, and that Bishop will be under Rome in all things except liturgical matters.

And sometimes this isn't even respected. Not long ago someone mentioned that the Maronite Patriarch issued some decrees trying to stop some liturgical abuses that infiltered from the modern catholic mass. He asked all their priests to celebrate facing the altar and not the congregation and other things. And those Bishops abroad said No to him "we're under Rome and Rome permits it".

Many people still see the Eastern Rites as a temporary kind of indult for minority ethnic groups who are attached to their traditions. It's clear that the Eastern Churched in communion with Rome were not made to be avaible for all the people but for minorities, while in the Orthodox Church people can join and be full members with all rights.

Catholics who do not fall in the category of ethnic minority and go to the East Rite parish will have the traditional Eastern Rite but if they're looking for a traditional cathechism for their kids, getting married in a crowning ceremony or Baptism for your kids... they will be reminded that they must go to their neighbourhood parish. So they gotta go back to they place they have just escaped.

Any thoughts or clariications? (I might be wrong in something)

Dear Mexican,

As one Orthodox priest from Ukraine recently told me, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate can only glorify its own local saints - otherwise, it is quite under the control of Moscow.

As for the Ukie Catholics, we have found that it is easier to ask for forgiveness from Rome, than to ask for permission!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Thou art wise

In addition to taking bold initiatives. IMHO (Latin) you folks need a Patriarch who has juristiction in the diaspora.

Gettin the EP back on our team would be fabulous. Am i getting delusional or trusting in the Holy Spirit?

Paul

WEll Alex,

I know St. Georges has! Come on down to Birmingham Alabama and take a look. I promise you will like what you see.

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment (and I'm eminently qualified! ), if the (Western) bishops would follow the Pope's instructions in Ecclesia Dei, and permit the old Tridentine rite on a wider and more generous basis, these folks might be able to legitimately set up shop at their own church, and leave the Easterners alone.

OK, but honestly that doesn't excuse it. That is an internal problem of the Roman church and cannot be used to justify some of the things that happen almost everywhere (it seems).

And I might be inclined to agree with you in principle if I knew that was the situation, but I don't know that although I have heard it before. Around Chicago you wouldn't be able to set up too many such parishes. The one notoriously successful parish (St. John Cantius) acts as a magnet parish, even attracting people from the Joliet diocese which covers the prominent western suburbs, but the neighborhood would not be able to support it.

In other words, from my experience the Tridentiners are rather thinly spread out and the Tridentine liturgy would have to be properly spaced to serve the population well and have enough individuals to financially support it. We are faced with that problem in the Byzantine church, we just cannot put the temples everywhere people want them, so there is considerable hardship on many who prefer it.

But the point I would make is this: When you are a guest in someone's house you ought to behave properly. If people want to attend a Byzantine, Maronite or Ge'ez parish on a regular basis at a bare minimum they should attempt to follow the rubrics of the liturgy, and honor with integrity the customs of the church. They should immerse themselves in the spirituality taught there and accept it as valid and equal to the spirituality they were raised with. Many don't, it is clear from their behavior that they do not respect the house of God where they are clearly a guest!

Consider the homily, it is likely to be colored by the theology of the church and it loses a lot when the people don't care to acknowledge the spirituality behind it.

If Eastern Catholics insisted on standing and bowing in the aisles, doing prostrations and such things in a traditional mass of St Pius X, I am guite sure that they would be told that they were not welcome by any number of parishioners after mass. When in Rome...

Michael

The attitude of those Tridentinist parishioners is very ilogical. I've never attended an Old Latin Mass but if I did so and had to worship there I would like to see a truly Latin liturgy and Western expression of the faith. Same if I attended an Ethiopian parish (I hope that in 50 or more years Church unity is fully restablished).

Now you have the right to tell them they must respect your Eastern tradition as the guests they are, but treat your guests good!

You must understand these people who had one of the most beautiful and solemn liturgies of Christianity in the world, are now orphans! They've been persecuted, they were deprived from their beautiful churches and left with nothing.

I see in them the thousands of Constantinopolitan Greeks who lost everything in the hands of the Ottomans, they had Imperial liturgies and then have to face hummiliations and hummiliations fro their new masters such as the Latin Rite Christians of our times.

Can I make a sugestion, why don't you try to restore an Eastern tradition that your guests will welcome happily such as restoring the Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic (forget about your current English mass with familiar "you" language at least).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tammy:
[QB] Dear Alex,

(edited)... They threw a fit when Mike suggested 'replacing' the Rosary before services with Matins or Orthros or whatever you call it. They were horrified at the idea of praying the Chotki because "it doesn't have indulgences attached to it like the Rosary."
(edited)

Tammy
***At the only Byz Cath Church in New Mexico (Albuquerque) people were asking me questions because I guess they didn't have many visitors from other Byzantine churches (I'm from St Basil's, Dallas)...I said to one questioner that I liked their church a lot and we had many similarities but that we didn't have the rosary before Liturgy, as it isn't a traditional eastern practice...she looked at me with shock and said, "you don't have the ROSARY??!" and walked away...I was sorta shocked.