www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are Eastern Catholics truly gaining ground?

Now that brings to mind the time that an Orthodox group from Russia attended the most Solemn High of Solemn High Masses in the most High Church of Episcopalian parishes. The visiting Russians liked the service, and remarked that they had particularly enjoyed the incense (a special kind which the Episcopalian parish had made to order). The Rector felt that he was obligated to confess to the visitors from Russia that not all Episcopalian parishes use incense. The Russian response was: "Some of your parishes do not use incense? How curious! Whatever do they use instead?" Incognitus

I do that! In London, when I'm singing in the Schola for the Monday evening Indult Mass at Corpus Christi Church, I hold my Old Rite Prayerbook and cross myself Old-Rite fashion, I do the "bowings and scrapings and prostrations" as is proper to our rite... and I also don't kneel during the Paschal season. It gets a few raised eyebrows. But then I'm a nut who believes in the praestans ritus graeci...

Yes...I remember Edward doing that when I briefly joined him some time ago...

Actually when I'm there, I adopt a farmore hardline Eastern mindset than I actually hold... it does these Trad latins good to find someone who's a mirror of them. Praestans ritus Byzantini and all. While it's great fun winding them up, sometimes it brings understanding to them. A few have pointed how silly a "the Greek rite is superior" attitude is and thereby understanding their own prejudices. I'd like to think I'm approximating the "Fool-for-Christ" way of working, but I suspect I'm more "Fool" than "for Christ".

Hello,
This is my first post here, so I hope I'm duly welcomed . Anyway, my parish, Annunciation, is doing a fine job. Couldn't be happier with Fr. Tom

Dear brother Alexander,

This is a good question. I think only time will tell. But I think this movement among Eastern Cathoilcs, if it continues to fruition, could produce a bountiful harvest (I'm making myself hungry with all this farmer lingo) :rolleyes: I think it might take Eastern Christians from within the Roman commonion and from without to produce the balanced pressure needed to make the necessary ecumenical progress with Rome. It seems to me that a lot of progress has been made and much more is on the horizon. This is as long as another Pius IX doesn't come along and crack the whip on all you progressive Eastern Catholic types.

your brother,

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Wm. DerGhazarian
Looys Kreesdosee
www.geocities.com/derghazar [geocities.com]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Welcome Nathan!

Michael

Tammy,

I like Mexican's post very much. I suspect that he catches the dolor of many traditional Roman Catholics. I also believe that his suggestion makes sense if the priest can do a Slovanic Liturgy. I suspect that may be becoming problematic, however.

Nevertheless, as difficult as it is, the priest must understand his vocation. The people follow him not the other way around. I hope that he will find a way that does not unnecessarily alienate the pilgrims but does in fact reinstitute the Byzantine forms of worship and sprirituality.

On a positive note, this Sunday Father Loya and Father Pipta of Las Vagas, are exchanging places. These sorts of exchanges could help us all to gain ground in reclaiming our Eastern heritage with as little disruption as possible.

Dan Lauffer

Amen to that, Dan! And thank you Michael, I'm glad I'm here

Mexican,

In America, not many people will join the Church if it is not in English. Switching back to majority-Slavonic will make us lose potential converts--whether Protestant, unchurched, or rite-transfers from the Latins.

These people want English, not Slavonic. I like Slavonic and think it should be kept but not be the majority of the service.

anastasios

if the (Western) bishops would follow the Pope's instructions in Ecclesia Dei, and permit the old Tridentine rite on a wider and more generous basis, these folks might be able to legitimately set up shop at their own church, and leave the Easterners alone.

From my admittedly little experience , that won't be enough. Although I would prefer the TLM to the Novus Ordo, our children are being taught a religion that is foreign to the parents and grandparents.

Also, not to nit-pick, but even though we are in different rites, the Eastern Rite church is as much my church as the Latin Rite, and vice versa. That is why it is called catholic.

[I said to one questioner that I liked their church a lot and we had many similarities but that we didn't have the rosary before Liturgy, as it isn't a traditional eastern practice...she looked at me with shock and said, "you don't have the ROSARY??!" and walked away...I was sorta shocked.

The usual Novus Ordo mass doesn't have the rosary before or after the "mass" either. Some TLM masses have people as a group saying the rosary before mass, some don't. At the TLM mass we always finish with the St Michael prayer as requested by Pope Leo XIII

What is a Chokei? Sorry if my spelling is wrong.
I was also wondering if the Eastern Rites have apparitions like at Fatima? Do the Eastern churches embrace Fatima? (was that the right word, embrace?)

I also want to apologize for any rudeness members have experienced from Traditional Catholics. I seem to feel a distinct dislike for them on this board.

Seeker,

Yes, our Church(es) and your Church are each Churches within the Catholic Church and, in that sense, our Church is "your" Church and vice-versa. And it isn't our intent here to drive away those of the Latin Church who come to Eastern Churches, whether in consideration of seeking a Canonical Change of Enrollment, as regular attendees without an intent to seek change, or merely as visitors - to learn about and experience the Liturgy in whichever of the Eastern Rites. And this Forum is very much a reflection of that. Many of those (myself included) who regularly post on this forum were once Latin Catholics; some still are, but are either considering or actually in the process of transfering to an Eastern Church - Catholic or Orthodox; some will always be Latin, but are here because of an abiding love of or interest in the Eastern Churches; many are cradle Easterners - Catholic and Orthodox; still others are Protestants.

Our frustration is with those whose attraction to us lacks an understanding of what Eastern Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) is all about and who have no real desire to undertake learning of it. Rather, they are drawn by our "quaintness" (admittedly not a term they would likely employ). They see, in what are sometimes colloquially termed "the smells and bells", a prescription to help them overcome the depression evoked by the Novus Ordo Mass, which they consider to lack the degree of pageantry requisite to catch God's attention when offered up to Him as a means of worship.

Now, I can understand that somewhat, having grown to young adulthood with the Tridentine Latin Mass, but I have a sneaking suspicion that God is much more concerned with what is in the heart of the worshipper than He is with the accompanying externals. If someone comes to us and finds that he or she is spiritually uplifted by the words and manner in which we pray, by our theological understanding of our relationship with God, by the nature of our relationship with God, and by the religious traditions which have brought us to this place, we (I pray) would welcome him or her. (It helps, I always say, if one also cultivates a taste for pirohi, kufta, fatayah, spanakopita, pelmeny, or whatever other delight is found at the annual food festival :p ).

Many years,

Neil

Seeker,

The piece you quoted above, initially posted by Slavyanskiy, a Byzantine Catholic, was describing his visit to a Byzantine Catholic Church in another city. He was highlighting the fact that the Eastern parish was praying the Rosary, a Latin devotional, before Liturgy and that one of the parishoners was shocked that his home parish didn't do so. While recitation of the Rosary is hardly going to sound a death knell to our Churches, it's indicative of an insidious overlayment of latin practices on our parishes. It's not whether the Rosary is said in Latin Churches (NO or TLM) before or after Mass, it's that the devotion itself is not of our traditions.

There have been instances of Eastern Christians reporting apparitions, although I'd say it is less commonly encountered than in the Western Church. (If I'm wrong, someone will correct me ). We don't formally "embrace" (not a bad choice of word, to answer your question) the apparitions of Fatima, but there are certainly many Eastern Christians who maintain an individual devotion to Our Lady of Fatima. There is a Byzantine Catholic chapel at the Shrine (the priest who served it for many years, Right Rev. Archimandrite & Mitred Archpriest John Mowatt, of blessed memory, a Byzantine Russian Catholic, served the first Divine Liturgy which I was ever honored to attend.)

I hope not. Latin triumphalism sometimes rears its ugly head and it sometimes seems to be more prevalent among traditional Catholics. We do get a bit fiesty when we are told to what doctrines we "must" adhere or what we "must" believe, feeling generally able to discern that for ourselves. No need for you to apologize though, you didn't do it .

Many years,

Neil

Originallky from Islandseeker

Wow - good question that .

You have a rosary ? Well this wonderful thing is often called a Prayer Rope for examples see here [easternchristian.com]

[and let's hope that link works ]

Some folk here make them - Tammy and Don take a bow and introduce yourselves

They do admittedly come in more than one form - a favourite of mine is a very tradtional black woollen one , and I also have one from a Serbian Orthodox Church that is made from Job's tears .

How do we use them ?- as prayer aids - to say the Jesus Prayer basically .

I've just realised that I have said 'we' here - and as you will have gathered from my 'handle' I'm Latin

Ah well - welcome - sit back, read a lot and then ask questions.

Anhelyna the Eastward tiling Latin