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[ You have a rosary ? Well this wonderful thing is often called a Prayer Rope for examples see here [ easternchristian.com] Thank-you for the link! Do you say the same prayer on the whole rope, or does each rope have a different prayer or set of prayers?
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Dear Nathan,
You are certainly most welcome to join this happy circle - and don't be fooled when the postings get barbed and heavy; we don't really hate each other! Rather the contrary, in fact.
Dear Neil,
You knew Father John Mowatt? Happy to learn that - I last saw him in your cathedral in Boston a couple of years ago, and I had the pleasure of visiting him in Fatima.
Lestovka - Chotki - Komvoschinion - Rosary - Prayer Rope (and there are probably more words I don't know). There are different sizes of them (meaning different numbers of knots). They really serve two purposes: they remind us to pray, and they make it possible for the - drat it, there must be an English word for dukhovnik - let's say for one's spiritual guide, though we should be able to find a better expression - to assign us a "rule" as it is called, of prayer - X number of specific prayers (the Prayer of Jesus is by far the most common, but there are many other possibilities) to be said each day, or some other time period. If you check the Jordanville Prayer Book and/or the Old Orthodox Prayer Book you'll find some instructions on this useful aid to prayer.
Incognitus
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Originally posted by incognitus:
Dear Nathan,
You are certainly most welcome to join this happy circle - and don't be fooled when the postings get barbed and heavy; we don't really hate each other! Rather the contrary, in fact.
Dear Neil,
You knew Father John Mowatt? Happy to learn that - I last saw him in your cathedral in Boston a couple of years ago, and I had the pleasure of visiting him in Fatima.
Lestovka - Chotki - Komvoschinion - Rosary - Prayer Rope (and there are probably more words I don't know). There are different sizes of them (meaning different numbers of knots). They really serve two purposes: they remind us to pray, and they make it possible for the - drat it, there must be an English word for dukhovnik - let's say for one's spiritual guide, though we should be able to find a better expression - to assign us a "rule" as it is called, of prayer - X number of specific prayers (the Prayer of Jesus is by far the most common, but there are many other possibilities) to be said each day, or some other time period. If you check the Jordanville Prayer Book and/or the Old Orthodox Prayer Book you'll find some instructions on this useful aid to prayer.
Incognitus Dear Incognitus It's the end of the weekend so we are all tired - but I fear you have just mixed up our 2 Newbies  IslandSeeker is not Nathan . Island Seeker is like me a latin who asks questions Anhelyna
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Dear Island Seeker, You are getting your question answered in peices. The prayer is the Jesus Prayer, or Prayer of the Heart. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner [there are other versions, very similar, depending on your tradition]. In it we relize Christ's Divinity and Humanity and our own sinfulness before Him. The prayer after continual repetition of some great length will take up residence in your heart and pray itself within you, hence prayer of the heart. The rosary is a private devotion, and one used by many, many Eastern Catholics. The reference is that as a church the west has asked us to go back to our traditions, so often the focus is removed from the church, to try to get it in proper order. The form of the rosary as you know it today is from ST. Simion Stock, but the original rosary came from the Eastern Churches, the monks. It was a resitation of the 150 Psalms and Our Fathers. Here are some discussions from past times on the forum. The first three are on the Jesus Prayer, the others on the Rosary. They may bring more questions than answers. https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002354#000000 https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002227#000000 https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002222#000006 https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000803#000000 https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001499;p=2#000021 https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001210#000005 https://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000387#000001 PS if you can't wait for an answer from us, you can search the forum. It is below where it says Byzantine Forum on top. But as you have noticed we really love to answer questions, and never seem to tire of similar discussions.  We can always find a fresh opinion. :rolleyes:
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PS if you can't wait for an answer from us, you can search the forum. It is below where it says Byzantine Forum on top. But as you have noticed we really love to answer questions, and never seem to tire of similar discussions. Thank-you for the links, and thank-you for not being annoyed at my questions which must have been asked (from looking at the threads) a few times before I did!! IslandSeeker
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Neil- My pastor addressed the question of the rosary recently [there is a rosary society in the parish which prays the rosary, with some hymns in Ruthenian, before liturgy]. He admitted that it was controversial but said as long as it did not eclipse our traditional Marian devotions [the Akathist hymn, etc] it was fine, and besides "didn't the Blessed Virgin ASK us to pray the rosary?"
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Originally posted by iconophile:
Neil- My pastor addressed the question of the rosary recently [there is a rosary society in the parish which prays the rosary, with some hymns in Ruthenian, before liturgy]. He admitted that it was controversial but said as long as it did not eclipse our traditional Marian devotions [the Akathist hymn, etc] it was fine, and besides "didn't the Blessed Virgin ASK us to pray the rosary?" Daniel, I understand and basically agree with your pastor. My personal opinion is that whatever is theologically "correct" **, meets one's spiritual needs and assists one to express themselves in prayer is likely acceptable to God, regardless of whether it is of our traditions. That said, I worry when the faithful of any Church use the sacramentals of another to the point where their own traditions are stifled or obscured. Just a thought, which we never seem to have addressed here - what about the usage of Eastern devotionals by our Latin brothers and sisters within their own liturgical settings? Is there, should there, be the same concern?Many years, Neil **bad choice of word, but I'm tired, and people know what I mean, (=non-heretical, etc.), so please don't anyone use the imprecision of my phrasing to create a feeding frenzy of re-definition.
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by IslandSeeker:
What is a Chokei? Sorry if my spelling is wrong. Seeker, Anhelyna answered your query but, kind soul that she is  , didn't correct your spelling. It's actually "Chotki". I think our resident mystery man (Incognitus) offered you a number of variant names for it and similar devotional items from the various cultures. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by incognitus:
Dear Neil,
You knew Father John Mowatt? Happy to learn that - I last saw him in your cathedral in Boston a couple of years ago, and I had the pleasure of visiting him in Fatima. Incognitus, Yes. I first met Father John back in the '50s, when he was Administrator of Our Lady of Kazan, the now-suppressed Russian Catholic Chapel in South Boston. He came to my grammar school one year during Unity Octave Week to serve the Divine Liturgy, my first experience of an Eastern Liturgy. (Each year, Cardinal Cushing, of blessed memory, had priests of the several Eastern Churches in the Boston Archdiocese on a regular round-robin of visitations during the Octave, serving Liturgies in various parishes and spreading knowledge of the Rites for which he had such personal love.) I got to renew my acquaintance with Father John years later at our Cathedral, since he was close to the Melkites and always attended any liturgical happening of note celebrated there. You know, I imagine, that when he reposed, his Funeral Liturgy was celebrated at our Cathedral. Our brother, Doctor John, (who I recently discovered was my high-school classmate) knew him much better than me, having served at Our Lady of Kazan as a Jesuit scholastic during Father John's tenure there. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by Irish Melkite: Originally posted by IslandSeeker:
[b] What is a Chokei? Sorry if my spelling is wrong.
Anhelyna answered your query but, kind soul that she is , didn't correct your spelling. It's actually "Chotki". I think our resident mystery man (Incognitus) offered you a number of variant names for it and similar devotional items from the various cultures.
Many years,Neil [/b]Ach Neil, That was a deliberate action on my part - being the kind soul that she is . I just produced a page with the correct spelling since I thought he would enjoy a look at the various examples there Just wait till you drop one in an RC Church and then have to try and explain rather swftly to a puzzled wee old lady [ wife of our 90yr old Server ] who returned it to me after Mass what it actually is Anhelyna
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Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love: Ach Neil,
That was a deliberate action on my part - being the kind soul that she is . I just produced a page with the correct spelling since I thought he would enjoy a look at the various examples there Anhelyna, Ah, didn't I know it. I can recognize the kindness of a good Scotswoman even at this distance . Would'na my mother's cousins in Larne have done the same in those circumstances - had they the occasion to even know what a Chotki is  . Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Dear Island Seeker,
The subject of the rosary and the Jesus Prayer always seems to bring out the controversial in us!
And there is really no need for it.
There is an excellent Russian-language Orthodox site that explains that BOTH the Jesus Prayer and what the West calls the Rosary are INTEGRAL parts of the prayer life of Orthodox Christians.
The prayer rope was once used in the West as well and the early Dominicans wrapped prayer ropes around their wrists as Orthodox priests and monastics do today.
It was ST Basil the Great who prescribed making a prayer rope of 100 knots divided every 25 with a larger knot - this was for saying the Jesus prayer many times and the Prayer said 6,000 times was a "substitute" for the Psalter for those who couldn't read or who were travelling.
St Seraphim of Sarov recounts that during the 8th century, an Eastern monk of the Thebaid received a revelation from the Mother of God to recite her "Rule of Prayer" which is another "Psalter substitute" of 150 Hail Mary's.
Prayer ropes were made to recite this Rule of Prayer with knots divided every ten with a divider knot or bead. Our Fathers were also recited and soon Our Father's were recited on the divider knots.
According to modern Orthodox Fathers such as St Parthenius of the Kyiv Caves Lavra, the Hail Mary prayer should be recited on the divider beads of the Jesus Prayer "chotki" or "chetki" (which name, in the plural, refers to the knotted beads in Slavonic and Russian).
There were even some Russian Elders who ONLY recited the Hail Mary prayer and the Jesus Prayer not at all.
That Russian-language site relates how St Seraphim of Sarov and others insisted that Orthodox Christians recite the 150 Hail Mary Rule of Prayer daily, that it was more important than ANY OTHER prayer to the Mother of God, even, yes, the Akathist and that the proper fulfillment of this rule of prayer is what guaranteed the protection of the Mother of God in our lives.
This information is also in English in the book "Staretz Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint" (chapter six).
The Russian monastery of Diveyevo where St Seraphim was the spiritual director of the nuns has a formal time when the nuns walk around the perimeter of the monastery, praying this Rule of the Mother of God out loud.
On special feast days, they actually sing the 150 Hail Mary's.
St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, shot by the communists in 1937, recited the 15 decades of the Rule of the Mother of God daily, meditating on this scheme of 15 mysteries:
1) Nativity of the Mother of God
2) Entrance into the Temple
3) Annunciation
4) Visitation
5) Nativity of Our Lord
6) Meeting of our Lord in the Temple
7) Flight into Egypt
8) Finding in the Temple
9) Wedding at Cana in Galilee
10) The Crucifixion of our Lord
11) Resurrection
12) Ascension
13) Pentecost
14) Dormition
15) Holy Protection of our Lady
The Russian Old Believers make special "Lestovka of the Mother of God" with 150 knotches divided every ten and the like.
If a parish has the tradition of reciting a portion of the rosary or rule of the Mother of God before and after the Divine Liturgy (this is very popular in EC parishes in Eastern Europe) I think there is sufficient precedent for its practice in Orthodoxy to justify its continuation.
Alex
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Thank-you for the information. On the web, there are diagrams with arrows for what prayers to say where. Is there one for chotki on the web for me to reference?
Thank-you!
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Dear IslandSeeker, I'm going to Florida myself soon . . . One says the Jesus Prayer on the knots and one doesn't have to say any other prayer. Some say the Hail Mary on the three dividers, like the Old Believers do. Alex
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Hello to all: I just registered here, but I have been reading the posts for a while. I'm Roman Catholic but have been studying the Eastern Rites for about a year, and I started about two months ago to go to a Melkite Parish here in Mexico City. Do any one of you have an idea on how one could start spreading a bit the knowledge on Eastern Catholicism in a mostly Roman city?  God Bless you all. Bernardo
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