www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Are Eastern Catholics truly gaining ground?

Avete Bernardo:

Gloria Iesum Christi!

As per our Holy Father's apostolic letter of May 1995, Light Of The East, simply invite them! Do it via e-mail, snail mail, phone or shoot up a flare. The Holy Father commands it of you!

Choices are a good thing in the Catholic Church!

Pax et bonus,

Scott

Our Lady's Slave of Love--

Would you happen to have the address of the church where you got the Job's tear chotki, or know where I could order one from? The chotkis with woolen knots tend to distract me, as they are often woven so tight together, that I can't tell if I'm on the next knot... Does anyone else with big fingers have this problem?

Dear OD

Well we do have a problem here - I live across the Big Pond [ and up here in the civilised North of the country there is a very tiny Eastern Presence] and many of my treasures have been presents to me from the many kind folk on this Forum.

If I recall correctly my Job's Tears Chotki was spotted and bought by a friend from the Serbian Orthodox Church here in London !!

However have you looked at our Tammy's site ?

http://www.chotkis.com/

She makes Chotkis - try her - if enough of us prod her gently she may make some with Job's Tears beads. I have to say they are wonderful in the hand - they flow easily.

Anhelyna

Thank you for the info, what a neat website.

Here in Brazil, there this guy who invented an electronic counter that supposed to substitute the traditional rosary beads. I'm not sure if it really worked out but if your interested maybe he could come up with a counter to substitute the chotki as well.
Lauro

The original title here is "Are Eastern Catholics truly gaining ground?" I don't mean at all to cut short the rosary and chotki discussions but I would like to pursue the original topic further. I am a Latiner, thoroughly caught up in Eastern theology, spirituality, icons, Divine Liturgy, etc. And while I don't mean to insult the traditional latin group, I really think that icons, for one example, are vastly richer from a theological standpoint than plaster statues. The Image of OL of Guadalupe, is, in my view, very comparable to the iconographic image.

I would dearly love to have the opportunity to be present at Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Catholic parishes, were they more accessible to me geographically. Now, I can only make the Byzantine presence felt in my own home by creating an icon corner, reading Vladimir Lossky or Bishop Ware, and trying to pray according to the Eastern traditions. I attend a Byzantine Catholic parish when I can when I am travelling. I by no means despise the West. It is what brought me to where I am now, and also, is the only option I have for Mass normally. And the Mass at my parish is done prayerfully and according to proper forms, with none of the violations of rubrics that are so common these days in the Novus Ordo.

But the Church as a whole, and its varying traditions is called to be evangelical, that is a TEACHING church, bringing the light of the gospel to the gentiles. It doesn't seem like the Eastern churches are spreading very well, not for lack of desire or liturgical beauty, but perhaps for lack of money? Do the eastern churches fail to advertise, market, recruit, make their riches known, etc. because of a lack of financial means? Or do they choose to stay pure ethnically? We hardly ever find articles in a Catholic diocesan newspaper that might lead others to Eastern rite opportunities for growth. I would love to see a Byzantine Catholic parish nearer my home. And would most likely lean toward making myself a permanent fixture there. But as for now, I attend Mass (thankfully, done well) at my local RC parish, and in between, I long for Eastern ways.

So I would really like to hear from someone out there that there is real growth in the Byzantine presence in the old US of A. And I would also like to hear if there are others who share my desires. How do we make this a reality? Is it proper to beg our RC priests for an Icon corner in the Latin rite parish? Or even to be more brazen, for Eastern music or chant? Would some assimilation of Eastern traditions into our Western parishes begin to show RC's who have never had the opportunity to taste of the spiritual richness of the East what they have been missing? Maybe some Novus Ordo parishes could even be brought back to life! Many are being strangled by dissidents and discouraged by sexual abuse by clergy.

Many Byzantine years, Tammy

Hello Tammy,
I can agree with this. I also belong to the Roman Catholic church, however I have been worshipping as a Byzantine and I plan to make the change soon.

It sounds like you are well informed.

As far as I know, there is no reason a Roman Catholic cannot adhere to Byzantine Spiituality and remain a Roman Catholic. Truth is Truth! You will not need a piece of paper to espouse the theology. Apophatic theology is probably more common among monastics in the west than among the laity of the west. There are a few doctrinal sticking points arising from the difference in the nature of Original Sin as taught by church, east or west. We already have a large number of Eastern Catholics who, for one reason or another have adopted the western doctrinal perspective, there is no reason that I can see for a Western Catholic to be constrained by the Western theological perspective. It is another small step toward Christian unity.

I am pleased to learn that your parish has prayerful and dignified worship. I believe that is far more the norm than most people will realize.

In your travels, as you pass through Chicaoland you will always be welcome at Annunciation Byzantine Catholic parish in Homer Glen Illinois, just southwest of Chicago.

I myself am very interested in evangelizing, we need to make a concerted effort to bring the faith to the people of the USA, especially to the unchurched and discouraged who seem to be the majority today. Eastern Catholicism has an effective message that is right for America.

The problem hasn't really been a lack of evangelistic ferver (although there is always room for improvement), the Eastern Catholic church would be in far better condition in the USA today if it weren�t for some serious mis-handling over the last 130 years. At least as far as the Ruthenian (Byzantine-Slav) church is concerned the deliberate attempts to subjugate and absorb the church are well documented. The Orthodox churches can thank the Roman Catholic bishops for filling their churches and guaranteeing a future for Orthodoxy in America.

But enough of that, I can appreciate how you feel. Eastern Catholic Spirituality is alive and well as you can tell by the many topics you�ll find right here on the board. The big problem today is that there are just too few parishes and they are scattered. We have a lot of leakage from when the kids grow up, go to college in a city where there may be no Eastern parish, and then secure a job in another city where there is no parish. The likelihood will be that any spouse they find will not be from the tradition and they will be far from a parish, so they lose another family to the Roman church or the Orthodox church.

I don�t think ethnic exclusivity is as big a problem as it may have been years ago. I do believe that all of the varieties of Eastern Catholicism are meeting the modern American culture head on, and adapting well. Where I live the Byzantine Ruthenian church is as Americanized as any Roman Catholic parish in the area. The Byzantine Ukrainians have received a continual flow of immigrants from Ukraine so they reflect the ethnicity of Ukraine very well.

There is some growth in interest from the general public. The church is hobbled by the vocations crises and that clearly will restrict our efforts for a while to come. Bi-ritual priests help a lot but let�s face it, the Roman Catholic priests are already overworked and it�s unwise to expect much help from that direction.

It seems to me that the Roman Catholic parishes are freely accepting of Eastern iconography and prayers. I doubt you will get a positive response from a suggestion to redecorate the church. I suppose introducing Byzantine chants and hymns would be a good idea, for a treat your parish could have Byzantine hymns at the same mass every Sunday. Having guest speakers come to the parish from a Byzantine parish would be nice, or having the parish sponsor a retreat with a Byzantine priest. Of course, poaching of members from one sister church to another is strictly forbidden.

We are under a mandate to become more familiar with the eastern lung of the church, so let�s get on with it!
In Christ,
Michael

The long term growth of the Eastern Catholic Churches in the United States and the west has to be considered problematic.

The reasons I see as two-fold. First, because of the low numbers of Eastern Catholics as opposed to Latin Rite. Intermarriage is permitted, the new families formed are more likely by far to be closer to a Latin rite parish, more likely to send their children to a Latin rite school and religious education, the likelyhood of having to move to a locale without a Byzantine presense for employment or other reasons.

It just seems mathematically a lot more likely that because of the much greater presense of the Latin rite here, more gains because of this factor are likely in the mixed Eastern-Western nuptials.

The second reason is that American society descends directly from Britain, a western civilization which picked up quite a bit from its historical relationship with the Latin rites and the western Roman Empire, its laws and common law. It seems that the spirituality of the west would be naturally a better fit for those who live in a western society that owes a lot to that religious tradition. I don't know what the convert stats are for the Catholic Church, but my educated guess is that more converts (proportionately) enter the Latin rite in the United States.

I don't think any of this is a slam at the Eastern rites, the Eastern rites still speak better to people in the East as well as some people in the United States and other western countries. But history and mathematics seem to be working against them here.

Ave Sidney:

The only thing that was working against the Eastern Church was lack of vision!

This is all changing with the excellent work of His Eminence, the late Metropolitan Judson Procyk and the dynamic leadership and vision of His Grace, Bishop John Kudrick!

And, it starts at the grassroots with priests like Father Thomas Loya from Annunciation in Homer Glen, Illinois.

See the performance for yourself: http://www.byzantinecatholic.com/index.htm

Pax tecum,

Scott

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Sidney,

While I can agree with a lot of what you have said, I will disagree with your contention the spirituality of the West would be a better fit for someone living in western society.

Without forgetting that what we are all sharing here is just our opinions, I would say that the spirituality of the Greek east is actually a better fit for the modern western. The idea that it may be somehow foreign to us is nothing more than a myth.

Our entire western civilization is based upon the classical Greeks, our religion was formed in the crucible of the East Roman empire and that is where most of the Fathers of the church resided. All of the early councils were in the east and the church of Rome was primarily Greek for the first critical centuries, as well as a period around the time of Justinian's expansion.

The Greek east is the birthplace of everything we are culturally, and the greek eastern spirituality has much in common with all of the oriental Christian traditions. I see it as the taproot of our faith, although largely forgotten in the west after all of those layers of doctrinal development.

For instance, from the time of Augustine whose many writings in Latin became very popular in western europe, the west has had to contend with his notions of original sin and that has colored all of religious history in the west up until our present day. Concepts like the stain of guilt from original sin are actually alien to modern westerns who often cannot naturally understand that the guilt of past sin could be inherited (a great catechetical challenge as anyone who has taught teenagers might know), but would readily acknowledge that we can inherit a wounded or sinful nature.

I really believe that if Augustine had not had such a strong influence on Latin theology (or shall I say, if there was more balance in the teachings from the Fathers) the Protestant reformation would not have been the terrible tragedy it ultimately became, but now we shall never know.

But what I am trying to say is that there is really no corelation between what society we live in and the appeal of the Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox theology. It has universal appeal, it belongs here, it inspires everyone.

It makes sense.

In Christ,
Michael

I think many of our preferences depend on our habits as creatures. We like what we are comfortable with. But as far as evangelization goes, my opinion is that the eastern experience of mystery speaks dearly to the soul hungry for God. Western worship tends to be a bit more dry; of course this is a generalization and exceptions often exist. But the nature of Eastern theology is to leave the ineffable to mystery. In Western theology, everything is defined, differentiated, classified, and then dictated as DOGMA. I don't like the phrase that "Catholics must believe" such and such. And that's not because I take issue with Catholic doctrine. It's because faith is a mystery to be prayed and understood, not a rule book to be memorized.

But what I am trying to say is that there is really no corelation between what society we live in and the appeal of the Eastern Catholic/Eastern Orthodox theology. It has universal appeal, it belongs here, it inspires everyone.

It makes sense.


Unless the Eastern rites can receive new converts into the church, the prospect for growth is pretty bleak. I would suggest that this thought be acted upon to bring converts into the church in the United States and elsewhere in the western world.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Hello Sidney,

Your point is taken. I mean no disrespect but your comment can be applied to the Latin rite in the USA as well. We must all work diligently to evangelize this society.

I wouldn't be able to comment on the rest of the Pittsburgh Metropolia, or for the other Eastern Catholic jurisdictions, but in the BCC in Illinois we are receiving converts from outside of Catholicism. My only concern is that we are far more attractive to Latins than to the public at large.

Bear in mind that we have CATHOLIC branded on our foreheads and carved into the cornerstone, and in the public mind that can be a huge hurdle (not insurmountable, but a great effort). Roman Catholics are not intimidated by us in the least, indeed our liturgy and praxis are usually praised, but everyone else has a whole list of presuppositions about us that may or may not be true, and our apologetics are complicated by the fact that we must defend not only our own beliefs and practices, but the doctrines and practices of our sister church, that's a tall order. We are yoked together and most Roman Catholics are barely aware that we exist. (except in Pennsyvania )

The most popular Catholic apologists ignore us completely, I think it's because in presenting our case that also would automatically make Orthodoxy attractive and for their purposes they need to differentiate Catholicism from the Orthodox churches.

Perceived ethnicity can be a problem, it will intimidate some inquirers but once they meet us they discover that they have had no reason for concern. We are thoroughly American.

The parish I belong to was established in 1999, it is dynamic and growing. We get a lot of repeat visitors. We have a high degree of involvement in the parish with many volunteers. Some days it's standing room only. I will predict that in 6 to 8 years we will need to expand the building or build a sister parish somewhere, it's going to be a strain on us.

Please do not assume that we are not making converts. Our problems are serious but that's not one of them.

In Christ,
Michael

You make many valid points. An outreach to Protestants, by the Grace of our Lord, may see many hearts reached by Orthodoxy in the future. I am a southerner, and down here any Eastern rites are neglible in representation, and probably often looked on suspiciously by those in the Bible Belt. We need to educate the western mind about the mysteries of the east. Protestantism provides so little long term stimulation for true growth in the spiritual life. If these believers, who truly love the Lord, could somehow see and begin to understand more about Orthodoxy, they would bring much zeal and devotion to the Liturgy.

I am so glad you have a vibrant, growing parish. It is refreshing to hear. I also agree that many apologists on the latin side totally ignore the east. I try to bring it into discussions in my own RC parish when I can. This is the first reunion we must pray for. The protestants will probably come in piecemeal, as theirs is a more indiviualized understanding of the gospel.

I think Eastern Catholics truely gain a lot of ground after they pass away, that's why our bishops are against cremation.
Lauro