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Dear brothers and sisters,

i wonder... because i have been attending the liturgical services of one out of 5 orthodox parish church in the philippines for more that a year now. have notices and been informed that the number of those being chrismated is continuous, thus many are being added to the orthodox faith. most of thier converts are from the Catholic faith.

this is very sad, as my passion to Eastern liturgical tradition is so great, the role of the pope is also greatly honored but this people have been lost.

like the delegate of Grandprince Vladimir, the orthodox community here were caught in awe by the beauty of worship in the byzantine liturgy not knowing that the Catholic Church function with both lungs (east and west).

so my question is, how can this be prevented from happening - roman catholic to orthodox? should one of the eastern catholic churches around supplement the need of some Filipinos in nourishing liturgical services? An eastern catholic mission to counter the effect of the orthodox church and also the many protestant denominations here?

sorry if i offended some of our orthodox bretherens, but i'm only safegaurding the tradional Church in the Philippines - which is the Catholic faith.

God Bless! eumir bautista

Dear Friend,

Magandang Omaga!
Mabuhay Ang Filipinas!!

A good question . . .

This would all depend on why those former RC's are joining Orthodoxy.

Is it only because of the beauty of the services?

And why the Filipino Independent Church movement? What precipitated that?

If you believe that the RC's converting to Orthodoxy will remain Catholic through an Eastern Catholic mission - the problem is precisely as you've stated it - the traditional faith of the Philippines is the Latin Church and I doubt very much if the Latin Church would tolerate an Eastern Catholic mission for those among its number who, for one reason or another, are "fed up" with it . . .

And how would an Eastern Catholic mission with its Byzantine spiritual culture serve to protect the "traditional Church" of the Philippines as well?

Ultimately, we cannot stop people from becoming Orthodox, if they wish to.

And there are Latin Catholics who become Byzantine Catholic on their way to becoming Orthodox.

So ultimately Byzantine Catholics cannot be trusted either .

Salama!

Alex

I suppose that the situation in the Philipines is very similar to what happens in Mexico, for example, here some people baptized roman catholics start attending orthodox services and eventually become members of the parish (sometimes without chrismation).

And there's also one thing, there's a legal procedure needed to change from Roman rite to Eastern rite (there's no legalistic procedure for this among the Orthodox) and many Roman Bishops would not tolerate this in their dioceses. They have a lot of antipathy toward those who disliked changes in the mass or the way the modern Roman liturgy is celebrated, and they would not like if an Eastern Rite parish starts attracting people.

To tell you the truth, it's my opinion that the impact of an Eastern catholic mission would not stop people from converting to Orthodoxy. Many Romans who feel attracted to the Eastern tradition and who start attending byzantine parishes eventualy end up Orthodox because of various reasons (some would say that Eastern Catholicism did not fulfill Orthodoxy and that they want to be fully Orthodox.)

As a Roman Catholic you can still attend the Eastern Catholic services but f you want to get your sons baptized, a traditional cathechism for chldren or to marry your gf there, you can't, you must go Roman for that and you will always be reminded that you must support your local modern parish and participate there. This is why people would prefer to attend an Orthodox parish and become Orthodox.

Dear Snoopy,

Our Filipino friend mentioned the idea of 'traditional church.'

In strongly Latin Catholic countries, such as Mexico, is there sense of betrayal in any way attached to becoming Orthodox (for RC's)?

Alex

In fact the Orthodox Church is not known here and there are few converts, most of them, even if they were baptized Roman, were unchurched or nont religious at all before their conversion, some choose to become Orthodox because of the liturgical services and parish community.

I don't think there is a sense of betrayal among people who become Orthodox from the RC here, Catholics know little about the Orthodox but they know it's "very close to Catholicism".

Moreover, among Orthodox converts here I have not seen this curious phenomenon of people who start eating Borshch and Bitochki just to be more "Orthodox". Most Orhodox are very integrated to the Mexican culture (most believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe, for example)

I would consider a real betrayal when people become Evangelicals or Pentecostal, members of those sects are highly de-mexicanized they don't participate in flag ceremonies, the Day of the Deads in schools. In the south of the country Protestant sects have caused an enormous problem because they have entered in serious conflicts with the local community as they have separated and become westernized (among indigenous population, evangelicals demand them to stop speaking thir language, for example). This doesn't happen with the Orthodox Church.

dear friends,

thanks you for your information.

i didn't consider those areas, the Aglipayan Church (Philippine Independent Church) and those of the protestant communities.

with my readings, the Aglipayan only wanted to be Orthodox in church governance which caused their ex-communiction by the foreign hirarchs of the past and their theology and belief system is greatly influenced by Anglicanism but not the extent of ordaining women.

the Latin Church here is very open... to situation like this. As i share few months ago, that my passion to live the eastern christian tradition became great and my search for one parish here even though an orthodox was a success. i sought the permission first of my parish priest then (auxilliary bishop of our district but now has his residence in our parish jurisdiction as the 1st bishop of the diocese of Para�aque). because of my firm convition of the role of the Pope i did this and he granted me to attend the services and get aquainted with the liturgical tradition but i must affirm my Catholicity by not forgeting to recieve the mysteries in my parish to which i'm very involve in the youth ministry and a part-time cathechist and the youth charismatic.

but then sometimes i would wonder becoming orthodox but still respecting the pope which is i think very contradicting to their faith. then reading the forum at EWTN made me even wonder....

to become orthodox or still remain catholic?

God Bless!

Dear eumz,

Magandang Omaga!

Well, there are Catholics who become Orthodox and who continue their love and respect for the Pope with whom they are no longer in communion . . .

It sounds, however, that you would wish to maintain that communion with His Holiness while participating in the mystery of the Eastern Church via an Eastern Catholic parish.

Perhaps it would be good to seek out an experienced confessor and spiritual guide to help you on your journey and seek out counsel to best respond to the call you are currently experiencing!

Mabuhay Ang Filipinas!

Alex

Dear alex,

That's the sad thing in the Philippines, even the preist here are not aware of Eastern lung of our faith. They only know it by simple text readings, not in the physical existence. whenever i would like to share the beauty of the eastern traditions they would always percieve it as Orthodox so some how they would put on their apologetic/scholastic robes.

Then whenever i would share with the Orthodox priest, he a very closeminded with ecumenical relations between Orthodoxy and Rome.

So, there are moments that I want to be Orthodox but moments, too, to remain Catholic.

To God be the Glory!

PS. the Filipino term for morning is Umaga not Omaga and the proper is Pilipinas. a little something for you.

Dear Friend,

Magandang Umaga!

(Thank you for helping me with my Tagalog! )

Ultimately, you can experience the riches of the Christian East as a Roman Catholic, without worrying about joining an Eastern Catholic parish or becoming Orthodox.

By reading Eastern theological texts, worshipping in private with Eastern liturgical prayers etc., perhaps this may satisfy your spiritual craving in this regard.

If it is God's will for you to become Eastern Catholic or Orthodox, He will make the necessary opportunity available to you.

Happy Easter!

Mabuhay ang Pilipinas!

Alex

Dear Alex, Eumir, and Snoppy,
Surrexit Christi!

I am glad of the thread regarding the Eastern Catholic mission. Orthodoxy here in the Philippines is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate with the Holy Annunciation Church in Paranaque, Philippines as the first Greek Church to be consecrated and it has missions in Masbate (they have a monastery there with 3 nuns, I think). The Orthodox priests came from the RC priests here in the Philippines after serving 10 years in the Catholic Church.

Can one remain Catholic yet be Orthodox? YES. DEFINITELY. The argument that "one has to be in Orthodoxy in order to understand it" is a circular argument. One thing for sure, the CC and the OC has its roots in the Church Fathers and the CC through Vatican II has urged Catholics to study the teachings of the early fathers. Through this, I learn to love the Church that I have grown. I also thank Orthodoxy for enriching my Catholic faith. I think I'll go with Thomas of Aquinas: "We must love both, those people whose opinions we share, and those we do not share because both have laboured in search for the truth and both helped us in finding of it."

Lastly, I just wonder why the Moscow Patriarchate is so opposed of establishing a Catholic diocese in Russia which is predominanly Orthodox but the Catholic hierarchy in the Philippines is silent about the on-going missions of Orthodoxy in the Philippines?

In Christ,
ruel

ps... dear alex, i just wonder? are you dr. alexander roman?

Dear All:

There was an earlier mention of the Philipinne Independent Church which has peaked my interest. Could someone be kind enough to enlighten me? What are its liturgical practices and just how is it "Independent?" Thanks!

Yours,

kl

Dear Ruel,

Christus Resurrectus Est!

Yes, I am "Dr. Alexander Roman" but I only use that when I make restaurant reservations . . .

How do you say, "Happy Easter" in Tagalog?

Mabuhay Ang Pilipinas!

Alex

You can do what a lot of Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics who live in Western nations do. Try practicing Eastern devotions (replace statues if you have them with icons, try Eastern prayers instead of the rosaries, etc). Try to find a Roman parish with a reputation of teaching the orthodoxy of the Roman Catholic Church. Maybe it's not good that I say this but Charismatism might probably not fulfill this.

Dear Alex and Snoopy,

Maligayang Pasko ng Pagkabuhay!

Yes, i know being in the Charismatic movement is such an obstacle to live the eastern traditions. but somehow, i view it as the tool that opened my eyes to the different ways we worship God. and one can find his place (according to the gift given to you by God) suited for his own personality. all of my close friends (literally all) are from the charismatic (youth).

but, i have adopted by changing alot of practices, prayers and dovotionals to the eastern traditions. like for example the prayer knots, recitation of the Doxology (now and ever and unto ages of ages), the use of Holy Icons and others.

God bless, eumir

p.s. alex, im glad that you are interested with our dialect. ours is a monosyllabic language.

The Philippine Independent Church sprung up during the Philippine Revolution for independence of 1898. The revolutionists wanted to erect a church independent from Roman authority. The move is political in nature and not doctrinal. The vision is a free Philippines from the Spanish crown with its own republic and own church government. The liturgical practices is the same as the Latin church except that its clergy is allowed to be married. If I am not mistaken, the Philippine national anthem is sung just before the celebration of the Mass.

The Philippine Independent Church was established by Fr. Gregorio Aglipay and it was the revolutionary government at that time who declared him as the first bishop.

In Christ,
ruel