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Dear Alex:


I gave you a list before, didn't I?

Anyway, these Marian Shrines are "famous" in the Philippines, being the only Christian nation in all of Asia (listing only the ones I know that are located in the Northern half of the country) and have personally visited:

(1) Shrine of Our Lady of Antipolo,Rizal;
(2) . . . Our Lady of Manaoag, Pangasinan;
(3) . . . Our Lady of Piat, Cagayan;
(4) . . . Our Lady of Penafrancia, (Bicol) which
Eumir alluded to previously;

I can't recall the others.

AmdG

Slava Isusu Chrystu!

It's OK Armando... In my late teens (5 years ago), there was an urge to serve the community and in my Church. to share my blessings, I don't know how but I was led to a Catholic Renewal Seminar of the Charismatic Movement of my parish.

Oh! the Phillipines is completely devoted to Our Lady, the Theotokos. There's this one the Basilica of San Sebastian - Shrine of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. And the Pilipino devotion to the Child Jesus, the Santo Ni�o.

Panginoon, maawa ka...
Lord, have mercy...

Slava Na Viki!
eumir

Just a note: It is true that the Philippine Independent Church was an offshoot of the revolt against "Madre Espa�a"(as mentioned earlier). Its founder was Ysabelo delos Reyes and its first "obispo maximo" (supreme bishop) was Fr. Gregorio Aglipay. I have nothing against this group but I would just like to point out that this church (If ever you call it that way) is missing its apostolic roots. Fr. Aglipay never received his episcopal ordination from a validly ordained bishop (catholic or orthodox). Hence, the passing-over of the ministry was never valid to this day. Hence, we cannot consider their mysteries (sacraments) valid despite mimicking the RCs. Otherwise, if their priests were real priests, real bishops, then they would have been merely schismatics like the Society of St. Pius X (founded by Mons. Lefevbre). But now-a-days, not even the Pope calls our Orthodox brethren as schismatics.

Ruel:

I understand how you feel. You are strongly drawn to the East, but would want to retain your fidelity
to the see of Peter. You want to be Orthodox, but at the same time loyal to Peter's successor. Unfortunately, there is no Byzantine Catholic parish in Manila (Is there one lately that I did not know?).

However, although I myself value the union with the Pope, I would NOT consider the Filipino RCs going Orthodox as a lost. They in fact have the same Faith though practiced in a different form and rite. Yes, I would highlight here only the severance of loyalty to the pope. But still they have THESAME faith. Personally, I feel this is better for them rather than becoming protestants, evangelicals, born-again, iglesia ni manalo etc... In fact, the same Spirit works through our Orthodox clergies who have valid ordinations.

Eumir:
You said: "I just wonder why the Moscow Patriarchate is so opposed of establishing a Catholic diocese in Russia which is predominanly Orthodox but the Catholic hierarchy in the Philippines is silent about the on-going missions of Orthodoxy in the Philippines?"

You are right! But the CBCP (Catholic Bishops' Conference of the Philippines) never had any pfficial statement against this (was there any?). I am aware any Orthodox prelate coming over are highly welcomed in the diocese of Manila. There may have been already a protest against this "redundancy". But I believe, this is really no big deal for the diocese of Manila nor for the whole CBCP at large.With a man as vocal as Jaime Cardinal Sin, we never heard any public protest from him to this day against the consecration of the Orthodox Annunciation parish in Para�aque. I believe the relation between the Orthodox and Catholic in the Philippines is not that frozen. We all PRAY for the eventual union of these two Churches. As I have said in my previous post some months ago:"I don't mind if the Orthodox Church would be a medium of sanctification for the Filipinos, a conduit of divine grace. After all, they are a legitimate Church with true apostolic succession, conferring the valid mysteries (sacraments), and professing the same true faith albeit in an Eastern way. As I have said, I would prefer Filipinos embracing Orthdoxy rather that christian-fundamentalistic evangelisms. Well, who knows- the Philippines might be the exemplary ground of cooperation between Orthodox and Catholics in the future?

I personally also pray that Russia allow the RCs to manage their own diocese in Russia. I supposed they came ther to take care of the RC-minorities and not to proselytize our Orthodox brethrens. Otherwise, who will tend after them (RCs)?

Pray for me, a sinner!
Antonio

Fr. Aglipay never received his episcopal ordination from a validly ordained bishop (catholic or orthodox). Hence, the passing-over of the ministry was never valid to this day. Hence, we cannot consider their mysteries (sacraments) valid despite mimicking the RCs.

Thank you for telling us this, well, actually i thought the Aglipayan Church was like Old Catholic or Episcopalian, anyway their orders would still be doubtful if they had any relation with these groups.

Otherwise, if their priests were real priests, real bishops, then they would have been merely schismatics like the Society of St. Pius X (founded by Mons. Lefevbre).

Umm no I think the SSPX is totally a different issue, it has been discused many times. The SSPX holds orthodox doctrine, while the Old Catholics do not.

You are right! But the CBCP (Catholic Bishops' Conference of the Philippines) never had any official statement against this (was there any?).

Well, although there are Orthodox missions in catholic countries like Mexico or Philipines, the impact of Orthodoxy is minimum, and converts to Orthodoxy mean nothing in the statistics.
Orthodox missions are very poor, unlike the Protestant sects, the Orthodox communities do not receive money and have serious troubles to survive. Moreover, here most of the converts to Orthodoxy, in spite of being baptized in the RC, did not practice the Catholic religion or the services offered there and looked for the Orthodox Church freely (so it's not possible to say that there is proselitism).

On the other side, I know by first hand that in Russia, the Charismatic "Catholic" groups, have a lot of international money (which is sometimes denied to Caritas, for example, and the official catholic Church in Russia). They're very influenced by Protestantism and their purpose is to convert people, to them, the Divine Liturgy is boring, redundant, and primitive. This is the main target of their attacks. Maybe this is why the ROC sees it as proselitism.

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i know that the Catholic church in the philippines recognizes this, the eastern dimesion of the faith, but to individaul priest who are not acquainted with the diversity of our Church (which are quite alot)... you know, i tried to open to some priest but their reaction was un-accepting.
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my reply:
That would be common to diocesan priests but I believe the priests in different religious orders here are open to orthodoxy. Why would the Dominicans conferred to His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew an "Honoris Causa" at the University of Santo Tomas when he visited the Philippines last January 2000 and sponsored a talk about Orthodoxy two years previous to the Patriarchs's visit?

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i had an experience with the carmelite order because i had a feeling that God is leading me to that but it seems i interpreted it wrongly. but i love the carmelite way of life though i found its not for me... i'll stick with the Orthodox tradition in Communion with Rome.

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my reply:
is there such a thing as an Orthodox Roman Catholic?

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being in the Charismatic for more than five years now has changed my life and my day-to-day has revolved with the people there so breaking away is kindda hard now especially in a year or two i'll be going to north america to work.

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my reply:
The Spirit blows whenever it wills. Its important to have a community to belong to because it helps in strenghtening one's faith.

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p.s. are you an orthodox or a carmelite?

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my reply:
I belong to the Third Order (Secular) of Carmel and a Roman Catholic in romance with the Church Fathers (especially the Desert Fathers)

Does anyone know if Fr. Kyrill (Greek Orthodox) still a member of the Third Order of Carmel?

ruel

Yup, it was explained to us by our former parish priest during his series of homilies at the nine-day novena of masses in preparation for Christmas.
"Pasko" is a corruption of the word "Paskuwa" which is translated to "Pascha" or "Passover".

Yes, the Carmelite tradition is eminently an Eastern tradition. I may add also to the ejection of the hermits, the Scapular Vision of St. Simon Stock occurred at the time when the established religious orders were questioning the legitimacy and canonicity of the name of the order known as the Order of the Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel and there was also a prohibition that the pope issued at that time of erecting new religious orders when the Carmelite hermits appeared in Europe.

I just like to clarify that the Rule of Saint Albert was not and never was supplanted by the Rule of St. Augustine. However, some of the rules were relaxed by the Pope before the Reformation and because of the relaxation, a reform initiated by St. Teresa of Avila emerged at the time of the Reformation. It gave birth to another vine of Carmel: The Discalced Carmelite. The parent order was known as the Carmelites of the Ancient Observance. For more info: http://www.ocarm.org and http://www.ocd.pcn.net

ruel

I may add:
1. The National Shrine of Our Mother of Perpetual Help, Baclaran which was visited twice by the Pope John Paul II when he was still the Cardinal of Krakow and he said mass there at the main altar
and during the beatification of Lorenzo Ruiz de Manila

2. The La Naval Church of the Dominicans in Quezon City

ruel

Dear Ruel:

How could I forget the Baclaran Church? I once drove my wife there for the Wednesday Novena, which I hated because of the insurmountable bumper-to-bumper traffic. (I worked in Makati for 15 years!)

But after the Novena, we immediately repaired to the coastal Road for the live crabs, fish, and seashells. Are the fishermen still ply their "catch of the day" along that road?

And then the "La Naval" of the Dominicans. Here, you got me stumped. Now, if this Church is along Quezon Blvd., could it be that it is the "Sto. Domingo Church?" We used to attend Sunday Mass there when our parish Church, Lourdes Church along Retiro(?), less than a kilometer away, was jampacked with worshippers.

Salamat.

AmdG

Baclaran is different nowadays. The government has finally cleared-off the vendors along the Redemptorist Street. They gave them their own legitimate spot around the church thus making traffic a little easy. Yes, the "La Naval" Church is the Sto. Domingo Church along Quezon Avenue.

Walang anuman!

ruel

I also don't consider as Filipino RC's going to Orthodoxy as a lost. What I think the problem is the convert's attitude after their conversion. Will they set-up an antipathy attitude with Rome and being having that attitude will make them Orthodox? Look at some websites of protestant evangelical converts at Orthodoxy, their antipathy towards Rome and the papacy is carried over to their new found religion and it makes it right. Would you think it is objective to claim that Roman Catholicism or the Roman Church as the Papal Church and the Papal religion?

Yes, I'm attracted to the eastern traditions because Carmel lead me to it. However, there is no Byzantine rite Catholic Parish in Manila .
But, I think I would be effective if I stayed as an RC because I could make a little difference in reaquainting other RC's of the richness of the Eastern traditions that was blurred for sometime.

The archdiocese of Manila is very open. When the EP visited the Philippines, he had a talk with Cardinal Jaime Sin at the Villa San Miguel and the Archdiocese of Manila also received a Russian icon (the icon of Our Lady of Intercession) from the MP and it is enshrined at the Perpetual Adoration Chapel at the EDSA shrine.

The Orthodox has 2 chapels (one in Makati and another in Malate), one parish (in Paranaque), and one monastery (in Masbate).

Also, I think the Byzantine Catholic Church must someday establish missionary centers because the Church of Christ is missionary in nature. "Go and preach unto the whole world."

ruel

Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen!

I find it absolutely wonderful -- I keep learning how many of us came to our Eastern Catholic Church by way or through the Carmelite spiritual tradition.

I, too, have a very strong Carmelite background (O.C.D.). This is how and why the Lord arranged for us to be where we are today. He gave us strong roots.

And I, like many others, have returned to the Church of my ancestors -- Greek Catholic in Moravia, Czechoslovakia. But of course I live in the U.S.A. and I'm Ruthenian - Byzantine Catholic. And on another thread there's news of a new Czech bishop.

Today is Bright Saturday. Oh, what a glorious day!
:p :p :p

quote from amonasticbeginner:

I always thought you were a victim of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

Logos Teen

Dear elexie,

You are "in romance" with the Church Fathers?

Then perhaps you should visit the "Where are our bishops?" thread in Byzantine News?

Alex