www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Bishop Jerzy Mazur expelled from Russia

Stephanos I,

Now you sound like Buba from Louisiana or Pat Buchanan. “Emigrate here or there” if you “think this or that” is the method of swindlers. OOD made specific points, if you disagree with them make your case, don't invoke the tried and tired “go back to such and such” argument.

People are correct—Russia has deteriorated culturally. They are under assault by all the cigarette billboards and advertising agencies imported from the west. They have become a dumping ground for western “goods” (which not many can afford anyway) and people are becoming weary. I also do not see what is wrong with the proposition that America (with its 60 what % divorce rate) has much to teach Russia by way of culture. In Russia, the number of women killed by their husbands and boyfriends almost tripled from 5,300 to an astounding 15,000 annually in the first three years of their “opening” to western culture and capitalism. According to “Newsweek” (9/2/96), “Prague and Budapest now rival Bangkok and Manila as hubs for the collection of children to serve visiting pedophiles.”

As one political scientist noted:
“Descending upon the unhappy societies of Eastern Europe and Russia are the Hare Krishnas, Mormons, Moonies, and Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahais, rightist Christian evangelicals, self-improvement hucksters, instant success peddlers, and other materialistic spiritualist scavengers who prey upon the deprived and the desperate, offering solace in the next world or the promise of wealth and success in this one.”— Dr. Michael Parenti (scholar and author).

I might not agree with OOD but I can see where he is coming from.

God Bless You All

Aklie Semaet

This kind of thing had to be expected, I think.

ROFL!!!

Even God must be laughing at this! Whatever Americans do on the streets of America, Russian do ten times worst on the streets of Russia.

At least we don't steal body organs out of people and then sell them on the blackmarket -- and if we do the people stealing the organs are from RUSSIA.

Russia has got to be one of the most sinful places on this earth. The government is about as corrupt as you can get - their people aren't far behind their government or mob (that is if the two can be distinguihed).

But maybe the Russian Church is like the Russian mob --- Cleric: "hey you come back here and we're going to cut off your f*****! Arms and ears." --- Another Cleric: "father hurry you'll be late for Divine Liturgy!" --- Cleric: "coming son."

Aklie,

I don't agree at all. And I'm far from the biggest flag waving American. And very well may one day in the distant future leave the country.

But the Russian are the one's bringing their violent, corrupt, culture to America. Oh at least a 7 or 8 years back I had a good connection to buy assault rifles from the Russian Mob. Their still here by the way. And the Russian Mob is taking over Americas orginized crime. They are highly violent and have zero respect for human life only their thug culture. At least the La Costra Nostra had some cultural degree of respect for the lives of the average by-passer on the streets of America. The Russian will get their hands in whatever they can - child porn whatever.

The only reason the Russians didn't have the level of violence they have now under the Communist is because the Communist would break your f***** legs if you got out of hand. This same culture of violence, no due process, corruption in the hands of a few, and missing persons abductions - is what gave rise to the modern day Russia when it was let loose and free.

I know a person that was doing buisness in Russia before - had the mob bust in his hotel room in the middle of night while he was sleeping, questioning him and warning him. He and his buisness partners had to hire foriegn Eastern Europeans from outside of Moscow to stand guard with assault rifles. He eventualy droped his buisness enterprise and left Russia - - - by the way he himself is of Eastern European descent - if it matters any.

Thank you no - I'll live under American blue skies any day of the week, before I'll live under the cold Siberian criminal winds.

Maximus,

You seem to be equating the present and difficult situation of Russians with Russian character in general.

This idea that all the violence in present day Russia results from Russian character being “let lose” with the fall of the Stalinist system is without merit. I wonder why no serious scholar who studies Russia has ever advanced this idea. It is only the illiterate mono-lingual uncultured CNN/MSNBC blockhead pundits who hold such viewpoints.

The problems in Russia stem from working people being pushed into a situation where they have not been paid for many months or years (working for "free&#8217). Where housing subsidies have been cut, full employment no longer guaranteed, health care unavailable and a general breakdown of civil society. In Russia real income has shrunk by 30 to 40 percent. The living standard is 1/3 what it used to be in the late 80's. The suicide rate in society as a whole has risen by 50% from previous levels. Suicides within the military and deaths by overdose have risen by an astounding 80% from previous years (Toronto Star, 11/5/95). If 15,000 guys tossed their wives/girlfriends out of the window in the first few years of capitalist restoration I do not see how communist could have kept them from doing that.

If Russians are stealing body parts, it is to sell them to earn bread in these difficult times. That is not to justify these wrongs but just to understand them. These are trying time for the Russian Orthodox. Ultimately I agree with Robert K. when he wrote that all these anti-Catholic actions on the part of the state are going to do is end up making them look more attractable to people as an alternative. Russian Orthodoxy can not depend on the state to do its work. The Russian Orthodox Church needs to rely on its arsenal of 1,000 years of spiritual development. Apply its talents and stop worrying about canonizing Czars and past feudalist all the time. Stop trying to construct myopic histories and nostalgia about the “biggest Orthodox Empire”, etc. It needs to revitalize not return. We should all be praying for them to be able to meet the spiritual needs of its people in these desperate times.

I just respect OOD for the fact that he has refused to accept this idea that Americans are somehow "special' or "more important' than everyone else. But OOD please don't drop American Super Patriotism for Greater Russianism.

God be with you all.

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]

I'd say that'd a be fair.

It was not us in the West who ushered in communism whole-sale. That would be the European East. It's not Americans who rip Albainian women and force young Albainian boys to eat Serbian newspapers - that would be Serbians - of their prestine Serbian Orthodox Christianity no less.

The West has it's problems, America has it's problems. But the Russians ain't the Japanese, and the Japanese rebuilt themselves something special after we [Americans] droped an atomic bomb on them.

The Russians? We've given them - the American tax payer - billions of dollars, and all that happens is their thug government spreads it out in government officials pockets. The Russians can't even get their own sailors out of the water from drowning they prefer to let them drown. The Russians character is in the ditch as far as I'm concerned. At least Americans had enough character to push back the Serbs - interesting crowd that is.

Many in the world wish to blame America and the West for all their problems, but I'm afraid the Gulags was not invented under the American character. That was an is an invention of the Russian character.

We shouldn't be more like the Russians. They should be more like us. -- If anyone needs to be like anyone.

Dear Maximus,

My family suffered a bit under the Russians, so when I defend them, everyone's ears should go up .

We must draw a distinction between the faithful Russian Orthodox and the Russian state, whether Tsarist or Communist.

Now by comparison, the Tsarist state was a pussycat and the soviets were real monsters.

But the soviets weren't religious and they persecuted the Russian church more than any other - they practically annihilated it.

The Russians have no better defender than Our Lady herself at Fatima and other places where she constantly shows her love for Russia and proclaims that it will be the place where her message will be glorified the most.

Alex

But then that goes to my point Alex. The Russian character has been shaped by Soviet Communism - yes? I can't see how it cannot be. And another thing is we no that the Soviet Communist never let the real facts about their crime rate be known to the rest of the world. I just have an amazing time believing that my choice of which freaken mall to go to with Pacific Bay wear or Gap clothing is what has precipitated the current cultural problems in Russia. America has had American values for along time and our government isn't stealing jewlery and diamonds from out of the national vaults and selling them over here in the US through the Russian mob. But then the US doesn't have miles of under ground vaults full of diamonds, rings, gold chains and ropes, and gem encrusted jewlery boxes - wonder where the Soviets got these current "national" riches. Goes back to my thug theory.

The peseant learned from the president.

Dear Maximus,

I don't disagree with you!

The Ukrainians "over there" are equally like that as well, comes from years under soviet communist rule.

I remember when we had KGB agents at the legislature, bodyguards for a soviet representative.

When I was passing them in the hall, one of them, a woman, came up to me and asked me what my business was there.

I could feel her cold, steel eyes try to look past mine and down into my soul.

They would just as much kill one as say "Hello."

And that can't be discarded right away - it will take years.

But I think we need to show compassion on them and on what their Christians suffered.

The person in charge of reviewing the martyrdoms of Christians in Russia said that he could "understand" the crucifixions of priests etc., but what sent shivers up his spine was the practice of the KGB to place naked Orthodox Christians on ice packs and pour water over them, then sit down and watch them freeze to death.

Alex

You have to look hard to find a soul in people like this.

Dear Maximus,

In the torturers, yes. As for the martyrs, may they pray for us.

The Archbishop of Simferopil in Crimea was actually nailed to the doors of his Iconostasis on a Good Friday - upside down.

May he pray for us!

Alex

Yes, that is horrifying. Do you not agree then that these are the people that should be recognized and honored instead of the royal family?

p.s. please clean your mailbox. I have been trying to send you a message for three days now but you are too full.

God Bless You ALL

Aklie Semaet

Dear Aklie,

That I am too full of it is something others too remind me of regularly!

Actually, I am, ahem, a monarchist and am active in a monarchist organization. I am also a supporter of the Ethiopian Emperor's return - sorry but I am.

The Royal Family of Russia had a cult of veneration almost immediately after its murder by the Bolsheviks.

They were a holy family. If people were canonized on the basis of their political successes only, then that would be a problem.

As someone of Ukrainian background, I am the last person to be seen in support of the canonization of a Tsar and his family.

But I've read about Tsar Nicholas' progressive cultural views about freeing national groups from the grip of colonial Russia, something the Bolsheviks reversed immediately upon gaining ascendancy.

Tsar Nicholas was not his father or most Tsars. That perhaps was the problem, the Russians liked and related well to a strong, autocratic leader.

Whatever his faults, Nicholas was personally holy and gentle and loyal to his wife and family.

He was killed by the enemies of Christianity and that alone makes him a martyr. The business of him being a repressive symbol was something the West swallowed to somehow learn to live with its guilt at thinking the Bolsheviks wouldn't do what they said they would do and what everyone with common sense knew they would do - to the Royal Family and everyone else who fell victim to their system.

The fact is that God Himself has approved of the cult of the Royal Martyrs. Russians returning to their Orthodox Church tend to pick up on devotion to St Nicholas Romanov almost immediately, sporting the two-headed Romanov eagle pin, as did Avdonin, the fellow who found their relics.

You can get posters of the tsar at most kiosks in Moscow.

His memory haunts the souls of Russians, including the Governor of Ekaterinburg at the time of the discovery of their relics, Boris Yeltsin.

The Russians needed to put that horrible episode behind themselves.

And they did this when the son of the man who engineered the Regicide itself, later a Russian Admiral, turned in his father's diaries (his father being referred to in St Nicholas Romanov's diary as the "dark man") to shed greater light on the actual events of that dark day in history.

The many, many Russians and others who venerate the memory of the Royal Family can't be wrong.

The Ethiopians venerate St Pontius Pilate (Feast: June 25) - and they do so without worrying too much about what others might think.

And I've also heard of miracles occurring through the veneration of Haile Selassie.

No one is asking anyone to venerate this or that saint or holy person.

But I think we should see, as Socrates said, the "good" in why people venerate the saints they do.

You have problems sending me an e-mail? I've cleared my e-mail and look forward to hearing from you!

Selam!

Alex

Dear Alkie Semael,
"Sound like Buba from Louisianna or Pat Buchanan?"Hec no they're much too liberal for me!
Stephanos I

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Stephanos I ]

Selam Alex,

I already knew that you were a monarchist. But I don't know what you mean about supporting the "emperors' (he declared himself he was never coronation) return to Ethiopia. I am also not sure what it is that you support about monarchism. Is it a view, often reflected in sci-fi genres like Kevin Costner in “The Postman”[post-apocalyptic] or Frank Herbert's DUNE [more than 10,000 years in the future], that feudalism is the most efficient system? Most monarchists have religious considerations, but I saw a post where you supported the returning of the Afghan king who is not a Christian.

In 1999 an Addis Ababa a popular poll was conducted to vote on who were the two most influential Ethiopians of the 20th Century—Halie Gebresellasie (the Olympian gold medalist) and Halie Sellasie were chosen. Especially since Rastefarians have been moving to Ethiopia en masse they have fostered an atmosphere of more myopia for the Imperial past. High School students are putting his posters on their bedroom wall (next to Bob Marley and 2 Pac) to the dismay of their parents. He has gained a renewed popularity. That is just in the context of these difficult times that people all over the world are facing. Everyone is nostalgic these days. I still remember the mass demonstrations that were taking place in Russia in the early 1990's with hundreds of thousands of demonstrators holding pictures of "Uncle Joe' (Stalin). Doing the same with Halie Sellasie or Tsar Nicholas is in the same vein. My motto is the same as that 1980's rap song from Public Enemy “Don't Believe the Hype.”

I am not against recognizing monarchs in the 21st Century; to the contrary I support it for cultural and symbolic reasons. But I support it in the same tradition of recognizing Iroquois Confederacy, Kalahari Hunter-Gatherers, Navajo nation, etc.

I fully support the return of the Ethiopian emperor so long as he doesn't bring his feudal property system along with him. I don't mind if he greets and receives the credentials of foreign diplomats or takes cute poses on T.V. with the U.N Secretary General. I don't mind if he visits schools and gives candy to kids or roles down the street in that ugly purple Mercedes Benz. So long as he has no right to pass laws and has no power to control the Orthodox Church I have no problem with him returning and being King. Other than cultural symbolism you know its FAR left field for me

So Tsar Nicholas had progressive “cultural views” with regard to his “prison house of nations?” That's great, but the Bolsheviks did not reverse that…Stalin implementing that a few years later beginning in his native country of Georgia, after he killed, imprisoned and exiled enough of the Left Opposition (along with Christians and others; read novels like Victor Serge's “Twilight in this Century” to see the interesting composition of prisoners in the Stalinist Gulag labor camps).

Being forced to praise the Tsar because he remained faithful to his wife says more about the degeneration from Christian morals in our society than much else. Also that does not make him a saint, some brutes just happen to love their wives. The FBI admitted that Italian Mafia boss John Gatti was never caught cheating or even flirting in all its years of surveillance on him. Tsar Nicholas was no Vladmir (980-1015).

The thing that troubles me is that when I see all the lists of "candidates' for canonization in Russia today most of them are more associated with trying to vindicate feudalism than with honoring martyrs and normal Russian Christians that made contributions to Russia's spiritual heritage. That orientation is also what bothers me about Bishop Jerzy Mazur's expulsion from Russia.

p.s. I was referring to your byzcath mailbox being full not your e-mail, but I sent you one of those too…

God be with you

Aklie Semaet

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Aklie Semaet ]