www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What Do Latins Like About The East , And Vice Versa.

I appreciate the Byzantine Church's approach to the Liturgy and prayer. The timelessness--which has been mentioned many times here.

Perhaps the best gift, however, was the gift of learning to pray and entering into a living dialogue with Christ contained within the many prayer texts within the liturgical texts and prayer books.

My Orthodox mentors emphasized that whenever one is praying, even when one is praying alone and in the most isolated of spots, one is surrounded by the Church from all the ages. Since the whole of created time is as one flash before the Face of God the Father and the life-giving Sacrifice of Christ stands in the midst and we who are baptized into Christ are part of His Body, the Church, with Him as our outer garment, whatever we do is part and parcel of whatever has been, is being, or will be done by every other Christian in every age. That, they say, is what the Communion of Saints is about; that is what it means to be "coming into union" with Christ--that dynamic relationship that transcends time, space, and distance wherein one is never alone. It has penetrated me to such an extent that I have never been able to pray without thinking about it since. Liturgically, we transcend time, space, and distance to be simultaneously present and participating in the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the Glorious Second coming. Our prayer is a continuation of our liturgical experience carried from the time it is served until our next experience of it.

When the Liturgy starts, wherever I am, you are all there. Even when it has been a small gathering physically, as these priests emphasized to me, the walls mystically open and all of the baptized are there. (Gets kind of crowded if one starts to really meditate on that.) But being part of a family that prays together means, too, that when I have a day when I just can't gather the strength--try as I might--to pray the day is not lost because the Communion of my brethren is still praying and I am swept up in it and made part of it. In this we all become Simon of Cyrene to each other: we carry each other so that no one is left alone or behind. We are all on the way to the Kingdom together. So if I am praying alone or praying in community, it is all much more than just me or just my community--we cannot be isolated.

Love cannot be divided; it can only be multiplied.

BOB

I also like the way Holy Communion is received in the Eastern Rite. But in all honesty, I can picture at least a few ultra traditional Latin Rite Catholics being horrified at the realization that it's Communion under both kinds. As if that were a mortal sin.

Well, be a little sympathetic. What y'all Eastern Rite Catholics may not know is that the liberal liturgists in the Western Rites ALWAYS misrepresent you - use you as their "scapegoat" -- for any weird changes they want to institute.

For example - seriously! - I once attended a guitar mass in 1970 where the Eucharist was a loaf of Wonder Bread and a bottle (not even a chalice!) of wine, which were passed around the congregation. We were supposed to tear off a piece of bread and take a slug of the wine. The beaming priest explained to us that this was EXACTLY how "our Brothers and Sisters in the Eastern churches" received the Eucharist all the time, and we were now expressing our solidarity with them!!

I swear, every time some innovation has been introduced, without permission from Rome, the person trying to push it has explained that we were just imitating "our Brothers and Sisters in the Eastern Churches." When I finally went to an Eastern Church on my own and saw how things were REALLY done, it was truly an eye-opener. Not a crumb of Wonder Bread in sight - thanks be to God!

But given all this, don't be surprised if your visiting "ultra trads" (or even "semi trads") are a little uncomfortable at first. It's just that we've sadly been misinformed about you for so long.

Dear Theist Gal,

I read with interest your comments. Based them, I have a few comments and some questions.

I'm truly sorry to hear about the abuses that you've experienced in the example from 1970 that you posted.

I trust that you and the others who were present at this most unorthodox liturgy dealt with it appropriately, that you left and then reported it to the proper authorities. How was it handled by the authorities?

I must tell you that in all of my years as a Catholic, I have never seen or heard of such an abuse.

I'm not doubting your experience, but it seems outlandish in my experience. I did a quick survey of some of those with whom I shared those years in the Roman Church. They were also astounded to hear about that abuse.

Perhaps what the priest in that horrific example was talking about was taking communion under both species which was a realtively new experience back then for many. Could it not be that he was teaching about the reception of bread and wine as is done in the East? No rational person would claim that Easterners used wine in a bottle and wonderbread in their liturgy. Certainly you do not want us to believe that even that apparently misguided priest was saying that they do?

Be that as it may, I think that it is important to note that even the example that you gave was from 1970.

I think that it is important not to leave the impression that abuses in our Mass are the norm or that they are legion based on individual experience or an abuse! 1970 was 33 years ago. Literally millions of Masses have been offered in that time. I think that it is safe to say that a great majority of liturgies celebrated in the Latin Church, if not most of them, did not contain abuses.

Abuses there are and have been, though. Might I suggest, however, that they are fewer than has been suggested. Isn't it more accurate to report that respectfully celebrated Latin Catholic Masses following the rubrics are the common norm?

*******

You made quite a sweeping generalization when you posted:

"Well, be a little sympathetic. What y'all Eastern Rite Catholics may not know is that the liberal liturgists in the Western Rites ALWAYS misrepresent you - use you as their "scapegoat" -- for any weird changes they want to institute."


Again, your experience has been quite different from mine.

I'm not sure who the liberal liturgists in the Western rites to whom you refer are. Which reputable liturgist(s) always misrepresent(s) our Eastern brothers and sisters? Could you provide names and references of reputable Catholic liturgists of any stripe who do that or have done that?

Which liturgist's works contain comments that make scapegoats of our Eastern Christian hosts. Which liturgists actually propose abuses and claim that these abuses are to be found in the East? Can you substantiate this charge?

Certainly you cannot mean that the priest in the example is a liturgist of repute!

I have never heard any Latin Catholic liturgist suggest an abuse and cite Eastern Catholic beliefs and practices as the source from which he or she drew it. Again, can you provide references or links to works in which that took place?

I have been here a long time now. During that time, assertions have made about abuses in the Latin Liturgy. Although I think that there are better places than the Byzantine Forum to focus on them, posters are free to post as they will within the bounds of Christian Love and truth.

When challenged as to their factual nature, the abuses usually are usually determined to have to do with aesthetic preferences or musical taste or linguistic usage or changes in body position of priest or congregation. These are issues of preference, not abuse.

Few assertions of abuse stood up to scrutiny, even here. They do happen but when they do, they stand out because they are the exception not the norm.

When the assertions appear to be true, it is noted that this forum is not the place to deal with those issues and the posters are referred to appropriate Latin authorities.

Frankly, I'm astonished by the approach of some of my fellow Latin Catholics in this thread. There are many beautiful and noteworthy things to point out that we Latin Catholics who come here love about the East.

The topic was not abuses in the Latin Church.

Some responses suggest otherwise.

Theist Gal, I mean no offense, but when a poster does what you appear to do, ie makes assertions that appear to be off target, I think that its appropriate to challenge the assertions. If the assertions are true, then appropriate references to sources that support them ought to be offered.

What good does it do to try to support a purported Latin traditionalist's attitude about communion under both species by what appear to be unsupported sweeping generalizations which paint the work of liturgists in our own Church with a negative brush?


Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

Well, Steve, being that I was all of 10 years old at the time, I didn't really have many options, other than to go home with my mommy and daddy and "treasure up all these things in my heart", to be used at a later date as amusing stories to tell on the Byzantine Forum.

And I think you have completely misunderstood my previous post, so I'm not going to get into any heavy refutations. Anyone who's read my other posts here and at my web site knows how I feel about my beloved Catholic Church (and about God's patience with my sense of humor ).

Dear Theist Gal,

Thanks for your quick response.

From what you've said, then, can it be concluded that your previous posting was a joke? There was no serious attempt to attribute attitudes and inappropriate behavior to Latin Liturgists in what you posted?

Forgive me if I don't see or share the humor in the example that you cited or the charges that you made. But since you say it's there, I'll go with that.

I love a good joke or a pun!

Did I miss where you do a Sophia Petrillo and say, "Joke, people, Joke!"

Or, did you forget to put it in?

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

No, Steve, my story was not a "joke", but it was a humorous and true incident, one of many which occurred under the auspices of a group called "Community One", based in Kansas City, Missouri - one of many such "non-parished" groups flourishing in the U.S. during the late '60's and early '70's. For better and for worse, they implemented many of the legitimate changes to the Roman Rite, but too often altered them according to their own personal opinions about how those changes should be done.

They did some things right and some things wrong, and in my extreme old age, I can't help but look back and laugh at some of the things they tried to pull and the excuses they came up with. And why not? When you think about it, it's pretty funny.

Quote

Forgive me if I don't see or share the humor in the example that you cited or the charges that you made. But since you say it's there, I'll go with that.

Well, I wasn't laughing in a "ha ha, aren't they cute " sense, but in a "can you believe they actually said/did this?? " sense, sort of like the way we laugh at Michael Jackson.

Quote

Did I miss where you do a Sophia Petrillo and say, "Joke, people, Joke!"

Or, did you forget to put it in?

Thanks for hearing me out.

Steve

Well, if you have to label it, it's either a really good or a really bad joke. Better just to put it out there and let people decide for themselves.

However, I stand by the fact that things like this DID happen during that exciting period when liturgical experimentation was permitted. And that I personally did hear some of the more egregious abuses justifed by claiming they originated in the Eastern churches. That's my own personal experience, all to be detailed in my exciting tell-all autobiography, if I ever get the time to write it.

Dear Theist Gal,

This:

"I stand by the fact that things like this DID happen during that exciting period when liturgical experimentation was permitted. And that I personally did hear some of the more egregious abuses justifed by claiming they originated in the Eastern churches. That's my own personal experience, all to be detailed in my exciting tell-all autobiography, if I ever get the time to write "

Is quite different from this:

"What y'all Eastern Rite Catholics may not know is that the liberal liturgists in the Western Rites ALWAYS misrepresent you - use you as their "scapegoat" -- for any weird changes they want to institute."

and also quite different from this:

"I swear, every time some innovation has been introduced, without permission from Rome, the person trying to push it has explained that we were just imitating "our Brothers and Sisters in the Eastern Churches." When I finally went to an Eastern Church on my own and saw how things were REALLY done, it was truly an eye-opener. Not a crumb of Wonder Bread in sight - thanks be to God!"

My concern was in the difference!


Personally, I'd like to read what you write!

Steve

(sigh)

"No one ever expects the Spanish inquisition!"

Now that's funny!

Steve

Hah! Made you laugh!

Ahhh... what do I, as a Roman Catholic, like about the Eastern churches?? I will break my �vacation� and 'fast' from the board to gladly add my views.

Like many others I will express this as what I like about both - Eastern and Western.

In my prayer one day, my mind was bothered by �Good Lord, which of your churches is the better church?� and Jesus held up his hands and said �Which of my hands is the better hand?�

The Roman Catholic Church - let me start with where Providence has placed me.

I love these things about the Church assigned to the Bishop of Rome.
1) That it is the mother church, and remains with the historic Honor and office of Peter.
2) The Catholic and Universal nature of it and all churches united to her. That all branches of Christianity have spun-off from her - like her children. Protestant, Evangelic, Calvin, Luther, etc..
3) That I can walk into any ethic church united to her and feel at home and receive the sacraments and experience the church�s varieties of rites and theological expression and feel at one with my heritage and history.
4) The Mass. ! ! And the fact that, if I do not understand the particular local language it is being said in, I still know what is being said and what to do because I know the Mass. I can participate.
5) Her dedication to the central mystery of the Eucharist and her calling us to the mystical life.
6) The openness and availability of Her rich and abundant, and varied, mystical life. From St. Francis to Thomas Merton. From Pade Pio to Archbishop Sheen. From the public phenomena to the quiet and simple-ness of her saints. There are many gateways to her mystical life. Through Her God comes down to me and speaks my particular language and human experiences - and invites me to himself.
7) That you can enter into the personal lives of her saints and mystics through personal biographies and such. That you can read and relate in some way to �what it is to be human� and be worked on by God. The human and personal letters of such a man as Padre Pio and the personal struggles and joys of what it is to be human and go all the away to the Mystical Marriage.
8) The attitude that the heritage of the entire church is spread before me, West and East. It is all my Father�s house. From the beginning to the end.
9) Its un-bias, non-exclusive and reconciliatory attitude toward the rest of the churches that comprise the full body of Christ. Her humility about the faults and sins of her human side and members.
10) Its great Doctor�s and their writings, and its theologians such as Hans Urs Von Balthasar.
11) That despite the failure and sins of some of its member priests (almost exclusively American) - She is steadfast and publicly active, against the popular tide, as regards issues such as abortion, homosexual marriage, traditions of the priesthood, and takes a public stand on a few important social issues and She maintains herself as the Living Body and Mystical Presence of Christ to which all else in Christianity is secondary and defined in the light of. She was not born from scriptures but scriptures were born from Her.

I love these things about the Eastern Church
1) A dedication to preserving the early rites and theological expressions of the first centuries of the Church. The preservation of �the mind� of the early fathers and ascetics.
2) Its intuitiveness and simplicity in human nature. The experiential nature of its theology.
3) Its �family-ness� - that you have become a member on a human and real family level.
4) To experience the Liturgy as near as to what the first Christians after the apostles experienced, as we can get. To know that attending Liturgy is an experience very near what Christians experienced 1500 years ago.
5) Its assumption that living as a Christian is not regulated to certain times compartments of your life. ur life.
6) Some will no doubt misunderstand me here - but as regards the Orthodox church as a bit separate from Eastern Catholics - I love that most of Orthodox clergy have left behind defining themselves as Orthodox by a definition of �not-Latin� and are now beginning to define themselves as � the Orthodox church having its own positive self identity and a valuable expression of Christianity to add to the Church Universal. This - thrills me - for what it brings to the rest of the Church.
7) That Her priesthood and sacraments are apostolic succession. And maintain their earliest expression.
8) That despite homeland social persecution - She has maintained her spiritual life in special cultural ways - and shows how to live spiritually in a society which is repressive to it. She is the church surviving social persecutions.
9) Her saints! And mystical experiences.
10) Her dedication to the formative centuries of the early life of the church centering on the Greek fathers. The chaotic times, the rush of history, the glories, the fights, the differences, the sins - all displays their human nature - and if God could work with them! - he will have no trouble working with - us.
11) That the church in her history - is still alive and vital to us today. The preservation of the roots. Like a huge living tree - the church of today (Western) is still feed from her roots and united to them. If the roots die - the whole tree dies. The Eastern church is an anchor - and to the extent that the Western Church can trace the - continuation - of herself through her roots in the Eastern church - she remains spiritual true and culturally adaptive. Of course I would argue that the Western expressions of the church have remained a continuation of her roots. And I love the Eastern church as the roots of my own Roman Catholic church.

To me - the Church is One - but varied in human nature.

A diamonds has many facets - and you can look through any cut side - but the fire inside is the one same fire seen through all facets. So it is with the Church - each cut facet is a windows through the human nature of the Church by which see can see One internal Fire.

For me to say �I like this about this church� does not automatically say �I dislike this about the other church.� I consider myself bless to be able to walk around the entire diamond and see that One internal flame form every side. And I do attribute that attitude to my Roman Catholic church. What are the words in the Catholic Mass "that from East to West - the glory of your name be known." or something like that.

That's such a beautiful image, Ray - thanks!!!

Well after reading all these - what can I say ?

All I know is that I am very frustrated that the Pilgrimage that I was due to start on Friday to Lourdes has been cancelled due to lack of numbers - and I had so been looking forward to Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

However I will be going to France during September/October so will certainly be able to wonder on one [ or maybe 2] Sundays whether I am in Heaven.

[ Oh take that as advance notice and contact me if you have any requests to Place in our Mother's hands ]

Anhelyna

The talent and energy that RayK put into his post makes me envious, it would have taken me a couple of days to write it and proof it.


james